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[burningpet]

Also, pretty sure radical Islam is on the rise because holy shit the Middle East is kind of a balls-fucked place, eh?

You can't point to a bunch of shitty living conditions and say "See, Moslem Palestinians would still hate Israel and declare Jihad even if they had modern living conditions!"

Radical Moslems support Islamism and violent jihad because they have nothing to lose and tend to live in shit situations, or their country tends to be in a shit situation, considering all the trained engineers and university student upper-middle-class members of Al'Qaeda and such. Palestinian Gazans support Hamas because they have nothing to lose and they're living in a shit situation. If you give them something to lose and help the situation rather than blockade them (Gaza) or colonize them (West Bank) then maybe the rockets will stop, eh?

(And yes, if you ask the Jihadists, they'll say they're doing it for the glory of Al'lah. Which is probably true. But if your culture glorifies jihad because of hundreds of years of colonization and shitty living, and if your only real option in life is to delve deep into religion, then it's not really surprising. Just look at the millions of Moslems living in Canada, or America, or Europe, who don't support terrorism, who just want to live their lives. And yes, I know that they do support Sharia a lot, but what kind of Sharia? Radical sharia or the old-style sharia, of local judges and such? Not saying Sharia is good because a judiciary based on 1300 year old book by an illiterate herdsman is laughable, but at least the old-style sharia wasn't "Chop everyones head off!")

Funny, seeing qatar and saudi arabia as the home brew for radical islam.

They're rich the same way the old European monarchies were rich: The upper tier are insanely wealthy, but a large underclass.

Yet, isalmist radicals popularity in those countries are equally strong throughout all classes.

And qatar wealth distribution is not as bad as you might imagine.

[Mr. Strange]

Snippy snoopy

Blind anti-zionism/Possible anti semitism and half baked fabricated evidence that neglects the bigger picture or only shows one side is what restore faith within bay12?

What logic and evidence? people argued with me over half a page about "smuggling tunnels to israel and the reason for their existence"

The irony is strong in this one.
I thought about calling you blind zionist and call you out on constantly pulling out anti-semitism card whenever Israel is accused of doing something wrong, but I thought that might have been too rude of me. Anyway, thank you for proving me right.

[GavJ]

Actually, I don't think most of the civilians killed by Hamas are settlers, at least not recently. After all, Israel did pull out of Gaza in 2005, and Hamas has been more or less pushed out of the West Bank following the 2007 election.

As far as I can tell, Hamas killed two civilians since the beginning of the current escalation. One of them was apparently bringing food to soldiers so it's possible that he was hit by a rocket aimed at the soldier, but the other was definitely a non-combatant.

There's nothing special or more important about the current escalation. I'm talking about years on end / a broad picture. (and I'm doing that to be fair, since recent events show Israel as massively and uncharacteristically out of control in disproportionate escalation)

[GlyphGryph]

Does anyone have the details on what ended the "cease-fire"? What was even the point of a unilateral declaration of a 2-hour ceasefire on Israels part? Just time to refuel and reload coupled with an ability to slam the Palestinian PR if they seized the opportunity to launch a counter-strike or what?

Also, Israel is back to using Flechette rounds again.



Basically, any argument the Israeli's are using about being responsible or trying to avoid killing civilians is utter bullshit - these weapons are intended to cause collateral damage.

Also, I'm hearing something about a Shuja'eya Massacre, lots of dead kids, and "Palestinian Health Minister Ashraf Al Qidrah said that Israeli forces prevented the Red Cross medical staff from entering the neighborhood, under the pretext that it is a closed military operations area." Anyone have more details?

Large part, english posts under https://twitter.com/occpal/lists/gazaunderattack

Found a video of aftermath, warning: graphic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf74xszvdt4

[GlyphGryph]

Generally fired by a tank and described as an “imprecise weapon” ill-suited to combat in a built-up area, flechette shells explode in the air above a target, sending out a cone of thousands of tiny steel darts each no more than 4cm (1.57 ins) long.

According to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR), six such shells were fired towards the village of Khuzaa in the Gaza Strip on 17 July, the Guardian reported.

The PCHR was described as saying that a woman, 37-year-old Nahla Khalil Najjar, suffered injuries to her chest in the flechette shelling, and pictures purporting to show the ammunition were passed on by a PCHR fieldworker.

When approached by the newspaper, the Israeli military did not deny using the shells in the conflict, saying that it only deploys weapons “determined lawful under international law”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-israeli-military-using-flechette-rounds-in-gaza-strip-9617480.html

[GavJ]

Wow yeah ya'll... launching bags full of nails at people. That's a super moral high ground there.

[GlyphGryph]

Israel just wants to assure everyone that no matter how terrible the things they do are, they are still technically not illegal and thus perfectly okay. :V

[burningpet]

Actually, I don't think most of the civilians killed by Hamas are settlers, at least not recently. After all, Israel did pull out of Gaza in 2005, and Hamas has been more or less pushed out of the West Bank following the 2007 election.

As far as I can tell, Hamas killed two civilians since the beginning of the current escalation. One of them was apparently bringing food to soldiers so it's possible that he was hit by a rocket aimed at the soldier, but the other was definitely a non-combatant.

There's nothing special or more important about the current escalation. I'm talking about years on end / a broad picture.

Since israelis doesn't kill arabs that build illegally or conduct in illegal land invasion, i see no reason to assume its ok to just murder israelis that might also do so illegally, but on israeli territories declared as such under a mutual israeli-palestinian agreement known as Oslo accords II. thus there is no reason to assume they shouldn't be classified as ordinary civilians, especially not comparing them to civilians who have took direct offensive actions.

Now, don't get me wrong, i am all in favour of kicking those israeli settlers from area C back to the '67 lines, given the palestinians could provide a strong, continues peace and remove all instances of calls to forcefully take over all of israel.

And if anyone thinks Hamas doesn't shoot rockets or use explosive devices that operate exactly like those flachette rounds, he is utterly mistaken.

[Darvi]

And if anyone thinks Hamas doesn't shoot rockets or use explosive devices that operate exactly like those flachette rounds, he is utterly mistaken.

# of people claiming this: 0

[burningpet]

And if anyone thinks Hamas doesn't shoot rockets or use explosive devices that operate exactly like those flachette rounds, he is utterly mistaken.

# of people claiming this: 0

Well, since i am claiming this, its actually 1

[Darvi]

Wait.

You're claiming they don't use those weapons? Shit, the body snatchers must've got you.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Hang on, are those airbursts or are they tank rounds?
If they're tank rounds, it's really not any different than firing anything else in the same direction- the intent is to kill. Not particularly worse than firing hollow-points.
The angle of those darts in the wall indicate they're being fired horizontally, (from a tank), so if that's true this doesn't seem particularly egregious.

If it's an air-burst though, yeah that's a fucked-up neighborhood-blanketing attack.

[Darvi]

Now, what to say: Gratz, Israel! You're now doing a 'black vs black morality war' by this point to me. I'm not supporting either side because both sides are being shits. (putting it nicely)

I agree with this. Both sides are utter bastards and anybody claiming otherwise has some major dissonance going on.

[GlyphGryph]

And if anyone thinks Hamas doesn't shoot rockets or use explosive devices that operate exactly like those flachette rounds, he is utterly mistaken.

Lol.

Any actual evidence for this? :V I mean, not that it actually matters, and I don't actually doubt it, but since you love to make blatantly false statements, can you provide even a single shred of evidence of this being true of the current conflict?

Now, what to say: Gratz, Israel! You're now doing a 'black vs black morality war' by this point to me. I'm not supporting either side because both sides are being shits. (putting it nicely)

Do you at least support both sides stopping murdering folks and Israel stopping oppressing folks and stealing land? If so, you're basically into the consensus position here.

Hang on, are those airbursts or are they tank rounds?

Both. They are airburst tank rounds.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

-e
Heh, GG ninja-edited.

GO, it's more like a tank shotgun- the rounds explode mid-air but the flachettes only have a little time to spread out, everything still hits (around) what was pointed at.

@gg
Eh, flachette sounds nicer than HE- they don't go through cover.