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[Angle]

Israel seems to be determined to drive the Palestinians elsewhere. That might work out for them for a while, but I doubt it'll last. We might well see a culture of displaced Palestinians take root elsewhere, recover, and then begin trumpeting "Return to Palestine!". Wouldn't that be fun. Or perhaps some other Islamic country will get it's act together - and then immediately decide to waste it all attacking israel. 

[XXSockXX]

It's difficult because I never use the word "terrorist" due to how subjective it is. Is every person in ISIS right now a terrorist?

It doesn't really matter, you don't have to call them "terrorists", that's just semantics. It is clear however that they kill, injure and displace plenty of innocent people and want to establish a totalitarian Islamic State. One would have to be relativistic to the point of self-denial to see something resembling a just cause in that.

[Angle]

I don't think it's practical (or acceptable) for the government to track people in enough detail to prevent them from going o fight over seas. If they try and come back, then by all means, charge them with murder and all that.

[Owlbread]

It doesn't really matter, you don't have to call them "terrorists", that's just semantics. It is clear however that they kill, injure and displace plenty of innocent people and want to establish a totalitarian Islamic State. One would have to be relativistic to the point of self-denial to see something resembling a just cause in that.

The fact that they kill, injure and displace plenty of innocent people doesn't really separate them from the Israeli Defence Forces in my eyes; something that British citizens can and do join legally on a regular basis. Of course I understand that ISIS are far worse, given their stronger propensity towards massacres and butchery.

The creation of the totalitarian Islamic State is something I obviously do not agree with, I abhor Islamism, but as I said earlier it's not about whether I consider their cause to be just, it's whether I support their right to fight for it.

[XXSockXX]

The creation of the totalitarian Islamic State is something I obviously do not agree with, I abhor Islamism, but as I said earlier it's not about whether I consider their cause to be just, it's whether I support their right to fight for it.

Well, that is essentially the conundrum with liberty, can you support the freedom of someone to destroy someone else's freedom? Obviously you have to draw a line somewhere, no democracy can preserve itself if it allows everything.

[Angle]

Yes, but if we're going to apply this equally, it'd apply to Israel too. And again, I don't support the level of surveillance necessary to tell whether a person is going abroad for a vacation or or Jihad.

[burningpet]

It doesn't really matter, you don't have to call them "terrorists", that's just semantics. It is clear however that they kill, injure and displace plenty of innocent people and want to establish a totalitarian Islamic State. One would have to be relativistic to the point of self-denial to see something resembling a just cause in that.

The fact that they kill, injure and displace plenty of innocent people doesn't really separate them from the Israeli Defence Forces in my eyes; something that British citizens can and do join legally on a regular basis. Of course I understand that ISIS are far worse, given their stronger propensity towards massacres and butchery.

Except that israel does so to defend its own civilians, while they do so to enforce their ideology. all hail the small differences that makes life such a complicated affair.

[XXSockXX]

Yes, but if we're going to apply this equally, it'd apply to Israel too.

It does. The question is what is justified in self-defense and what is not. I am not saying everything Israel does is justified and neither are many Israelis, but the way people paint Israel as the evil aggressor in this conflict is ridiculous. Of the many conflicts going on in the world, many of them killing Muslims on a level Israel could never pull off, this is the one people choose to be outraged about, which I find is problematic.

And again, I don't support the level of surveillance necessary to tell whether a person is going abroad for a vacation or or Jihad.

Well, these are people that already are under secret service surveillance for being known extremists, otherwise we would not know about them.

[Angle]

...You think they don't have civilians to defend? Or that Israel has no ideology?

all hail the small differences that makes life such a complicated affair.

Amen.

Well, these are people that already are under secret service surveillance for being known extremists, otherwise we would not know about them.

Are they? It was my understanding that most of them were random civilians no one had heard of, who met a Jihadist on the internet and decided "That looks like a worthwhile use of my time!" and spontaneously left.

[XXSockXX]

Well, these are people that already are under secret service surveillance for being known extremists, otherwise we would not know about them.

Are they? It was my understanding that most of them were random civilians no one had heard of, who met a Jihadist on the internet and decided "That looks like a worthwhile use of my time!" and spontaneously left.

Yeah, that happens too, to a frightening extent. But AFAIK the measures that were implemented in France were against known extremists leaving the country, not random Muslims (which would require a disturbing amount of surveillance indeed in a country with such a big muslim population).
EDIT:
I checked back where I read that, this article (in German) explains that the law is directed at an estimated 800 people suspected of being involved with islamic extremist organisations, many of which are already in Syria.

[burningpet]

...You think they don't have civilians to defend? Or that Israel has no ideology?

Who's civilians are they defending?

[Angle]

The people living in the gaza strip. The people living in the west bank who's home keep getting bulldozed.

[burningpet]

Yeah, that's all nice and all, but the context of the discussion was regarding ISIS.

And on the context of Gaza, then, well, no, they are not defending civilans, they are using them as meat shields to defend their rockets.

[Angle]

ISIS? No, the discussion was about westerners going overseas to fight for radical Islam. It doesn't matter whether that means ISIS or not. And we weren't even talking about that topic, we were talking about Gaza strip and Israel.

And yes, recently they have been. But the fundamental reason they're fighting is because the Israeli's have blatantly stolen their land and packed them into an open air prison, and are in the process of stealing more of their land.

[burningpet]

You are contradicting yourself. so to make it clear, my response was regarding the overseas islamic nutcases legitimacy versus israel's.

So, ISIS or Al qaeda or whatever. who's civilians are they protecting, exactly?
 
And no, hiding behind civilians isn't a recent tactic. it began taking place when the jihad rose to power around the late 80's.