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[Virex]

Reading the mass of tweets coming out of the rebellion, I am starting to see a common theme of requests for outside help...

Medical supplies.

(Edit: I actually think this wouldn't be a bad thing to do, active medical support while this is going on. The problem is, How can we get medical supplies to a country that is currently a no-fly zone? Can't exactly overnight a Defibrillator to Tripoli.)

Getting medical supplies to Tripoli is nearly impossible right now. The regime thugs just intercept the shipments. In fact, they're saying that hospitals in Tripoli are occupied by state security and are only allowing treatment of loyalists. Wounded protesters are turned away or "disappear".

In the east around Benghazi the situation is very different. I heard an interview with a Red Cross/Red Crescent coordinator on the ground in Benghazi and he said they were getting a steady flow of medical supplies from the egyptian border and by sea, and the city itself has two months supply of food. They say the situation in eastern Libya is better than in many years since Ghaddafi has been neglecting it for decades. Only problem in the east is that some roads are unsafe due to loyalist cells.

Just send vials of cyanide labeled as morphine to the state hospitals. That should reduce the pressure on the doctors significantly.

[Kogan Loloklam]

A map showing control in Tripoli.

On a unrelated note, Libyans think the US cares about their oil production.
Opec is 40% of the US's sources of Oil.
Libya is 2% of our Opec imports.

This means less than 1% of the Oil that goes into the USA comes from Libya, and before 2004 there was sanctions which meant we shouldn't have been importing any.

Of course Libyans have entirely different views of the USA, thinking themselves important only because of oil. It'd be nice if they understood that the Average citizen (once they get over their kneejerk "OMG THEY ARE TERRORISTS KILL THEM!!!!1!") care about them because they are humans, not because of what is in the ground over there.

Anyway, it seems like most Libya tweets say don't ask for troops to be sent in, ask for medical supplies to be sent in instead. BUT NO MONEY! They are just as nervous about what kind of person will take power once their "protests" are done as everyone else is, and they don't want us to financially support people who might cause them as much problems.

So, I guess if you want to help the Libya people, go to the Red Cross and make a donation for their efforts in Libya.

And certainly actions telling your congressmen "screw blackwell (or xe or whatever), allowing Libyan war criminals to go free is not worth protecting US citizens who willfully violate international law, and we'll bring our own government down if you don't start listening." would be helpful for them too.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

In the eyes of the US government, protecting the lives of their people, and especially their soldiers and agents, comes before seeing some petty criminals tried. As it fucking should be. Besides, why are the mercenaries even in a position to go to trial? Either they've fled and vanished into thin air, or they're in the hands of revolutionaries, the very people who have the most grievances against them, and who I am sure "aren't keeping thorough records of captured enemy combatants," so it's not like there's evidence they even captured any in the first place, and they weren't simply killed in combat...

Of course Libyans have entirely different views of the USA, thinking themselves important only because of oil. It'd be nice if they understood that the Average citizen (once they get over their kneejerk "OMG THEY ARE TERRORISTS KILL THEM!!!!1!") care about them because they are humans, not because of what is in the ground over there.

Their error is they think they're important, not that they're important due to oil. I can vouch for the fact that Americans really don't give a shit about them (even the ones that are stereotypically supposed to). I spent the vast majority of the weekend sitting outside a coffee shop with a bunch of generally leftist college students. Not one person gave a shit about Libya.

[ChairmanPoo]

Your error is to think that your drinking buddies actually matter when determining whether something is important or not.

[Alexhans]

If only that was his one error.  The world works in the way he tells us, he is permanently schooling his fellow ignorant b12ers and telling them what the facts really are and why everyone falls into a very simple category/stereotype he can sum up in 2 paragraphs. 

Anyway, I'm back to work and I need to figure out a non invasive, sober and not too distracting way to keep up with the news.

IRC clients don't work so I might just have to use a browser, which sucks, twitter is now working, but it's too flashy, I'd be better of with a plaintext feed with no images. Ideas?

[GlyphGryph]

Sir Pseudonymous,
If I was somewhere you were, I'd suddenly not care about Libya for a while as well. It certainly wouldn't be worth the inevitable argument.

[Sheb]

It seems like France is finally getting on the right side of history.

[DJ]

Why the hell would you protect friggin' war criminals? What if an American civilian goes abroad, kills a bunch of people and rapes a bunch of women, and then escapes back into USA, and then the country where he committed the crimes goes through Interpol to get him extradited to their court? Should USA refuse the request and protect the criminal? If not, how does a uniform make it any different? If yes, how would you feel if Canada refused to give up a serial killer that did his killing in USA?

[Kogan Loloklam]

If only that was his one error.  The world works in the way he tells us, he is permanently schooling his fellow ignorant b12ers and telling them what the facts really are and why everyone falls into a very simple category/stereotype he can sum up in 2 paragraphs. 

Anyway, I'm back to work and I need to figure out a non invasive, sober and not too distracting way to keep up with the news.

IRC clients don't work so I might just have to use a browser, which sucks, twitter is now working, but it's too flashy, I'd be better of with a plaintext feed with no images. Ideas?

Ooh, you sure schooled me!

Actually, Sir Pseudonymous is right, Libya really isn't important to most Americans at all, let alone for Oil. I want to see Qaddafi gone because I genuinely believe that people who violate international law need to be held accountable. Of course I think that American Citizens should be twice as accountable to international law than other places because we are the leader.
Protecting American citizens for prosecution of things they did in another country that is deemed illegal by the rest of the world is not AS IT SHOULD BE. I have to wonder about the kind of person who thinks it is. Probably the same person who runs a stop sign in front of a cop across the street from a school and says that the ticket he gets is just because they want his money.

[Phmcw]

Kogan, you realize that it's because of these view that Manning is going to be imprisoned for life, and is suffering especially punitive condition right now?

DJ :  because there is a bunch of poeple that did just that, and they have never been tried.

Anyway, Europe and America are being complete hypocrites right now, but I'd rather have that than nothing. Everyone is sending troops and we'll be ready to strike in a few days I'd say.

[Duke 2.0]

 Every country in the world has tried to get their citizens a more lenient sentence when they do illegal stuff abroad. I think it's sort of the duty of the country to try and fight for them a little. but ultimately international courts should be strong enough to finally get the criminal. The only real issue is that America has enough leverage to overpower international courts. We just need people over here to say "Alright, we have shown that we protect our people. Time to hand him over."

[Alexhans]

Of course I think that American Citizens should be twice as accountable to international law than other places because we are the leader.

Really?  Do you think this is even remotely happening?

Also, Kogan, I never said Americans cared.  The average citizen in every country will probably care more about A) work/money/QoL B) family, relations C) Entertainment than something he doesn't even know about or that doesn't seem to directly and adversely affect him.

A safe guess will be: "The majority of the people in <insert country here> don't give a shit about Libya (Except maybe Neighbors).  That being said, many people DO care about it and politicians DO have to face the related issues so the cynical view is not really important right now. 

[DJ]

Naturally, I don't expect any country to give up it's citizens by default, it's customary to hold a trial over it to determine whether it should be done. But USA is outright refusing to even consider it.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

The point was "leftist college students," people who should, stereotypically, care about such things, don't. If you care, you're in the tiniest minority of people. Believe it or not, most people care far more about their daily routine than the fate of people on the other side of the world, at least until the media starts trying to rile them up for one illconceived reason or another (although then it's more they start crying for blood). I am unique from them in that I make a point of being aware of the situation, and rationally don't care, rather than having some subconscious process shove it out of mind.

You know, I used to be just like you, and could never understand why people didn't care about all these "atrocities", or the supposed "excesses and corruption" of the government. I read Daily Kos, the Buffalo Beast, Stalman's blog, and god knows what else. Eventually I realized how flawed all of that is, just as I realized Libertarianism is critically flawed prior to that. And so here I am, a pragmatist. I still have the same lofty goals that most of you no doubt have, given how you talk, but I take a practical approach to them. Sure, it'd be nice if every human had a high standard of living, and ultimately they should, but that's just not possible in this day and age, and we must concern ourselves with the problems of our own societies, problems which affect us, rather than local issues across thousands of miles of ocean. If it were Israel we were talking about, then we should care, because Israel is ax-crazy and has nuclear weapons, and so could kill most of us in a fit of spite should it be in peril of falling. Libya doesn't pose any threat to anyone outside its borders, nor does it provide more than the tiniest amount of resources to the outside world.

Why the hell would you protect friggin' war criminals? What if an American civilian goes abroad, kills a bunch of people and rapes a bunch of women, and then escapes back into USA, and then the country where he committed the crimes goes through Interpol to get him extradited to their court? Should USA refuse the request and protect the criminal? If not, how does a uniform make it any different? If yes, how would you feel if Canada refused to give up a serial killer that did his killing in USA?

And what if an American is falsely accused of such things abroad? They cannot be guaranteed a fair trial in some kangaroo court that just wants the distinction of lynching an American. If there is actual evidence against them, they should be tried in the US, or at the very least in another prominent country that's not just out to say "fuck you" to "the imperialist pigs." Anywhere else and it can only be a travesty of justice for the poor bastard. If you're talking about a soldier, then they're under the exclusive jurisdiction of the military, and believe it or not, those soldiers who actually committed crimes, are tried for them, and face harsher sentences than they would in a civilian court. Whatever backwater they're stationed in shouldn't have the authority to charge them with anything, nor should an international court, especially not if they're being charged for carrying out their orders.

[DJ]

That's why you have trials at home for determining whether there's sufficient evidence for extradition.