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[Duke 2.0]

If they were able to do it with Morrowind's budget, then they could've done it with the much larger one they've got now instead of investing it on stupid shit like dual-wielding maces.

 This brings up two very good points that have already sorta been addressed.

 1. Morrowind didn't pull it off. They had it sure but it looked as awkward and goofy as every other animation.

 2. Different people have different priorities. Some prefer a small list of features that is polished to a mirror shine, and others prefer a haphazard massive list of crazy things one can do. If they focus on making dual maces work then hey, good for them. That is the sort of stuff I want perfected. Others want every crazy half-working thing that can be crammed in with only a second look at balance. Nothing wrong with either approach, I just think they are focusing more on making the core gameplay work better with a modern engine that does not need to adhere to the limitations of past engines.

[Sordid]

Different people have different priorities. Some prefer a small list of features that is polished to a mirror shine, and others prefer a haphazard massive list of crazy things one can do. If they focus on making dual maces work then hey, good for them. That is the sort of stuff I want perfected. Others want every crazy half-working thing that can be crammed in with only a second look at balance. Nothing wrong with either approach, I just think they are focusing more on making the core gameplay work better with a modern engine that does not need to adhere to the limitations of past engines.

You're presenting that as a dichotomy between lots of features without polish and few but well balanced and polished features. But that's not the only two ways it could go, is it? Let's be honest, the TES series has never been a shining example of polish and balance. Maybe Skyrim will be different, but I seriously doubt it. If it ends up with fewer features than previous TES games but still just as buggy and broken, neither group will be satisfied. Personally, I'd like it to have many varied features and be well balanced and polished. Bethsoft is one of the biggest game companies, they have shitloads of cash, and Skyrim is their flagship triple-A title. I don't think that's asking too much.

[Capntastic]

I don't think non-digitigrade walkin' humanoids is going to be the main hurdle Skyrim faces in being a good game.

[KaguroDraven]

Different people have different priorities. Some prefer a small list of features that is polished to a mirror shine, and others prefer a haphazard massive list of crazy things one can do. If they focus on making dual maces work then hey, good for them. That is the sort of stuff I want perfected. Others want every crazy half-working thing that can be crammed in with only a second look at balance. Nothing wrong with either approach, I just think they are focusing more on making the core gameplay work better with a modern engine that does not need to adhere to the limitations of past engines.

You're presenting that as a dichotomy between lots of features without polish and few but well balanced and polished features. But that's not the only two ways it could go, is it? Let's be honest, the TES series has never been a shining example of polish and balance. Maybe Skyrim will be different, but I seriously doubt it. If it ends up with fewer features than previous TES games but still just as buggy and broken, neither group will be satisfied. Personally, I'd like it to have many varied features and be well balanced and polished. Bethsoft is one of the biggest game companies, they have shitloads of cash, and Skyrim is their flagship triple-A title. I don't think that's asking too much.

Saying a game can have both is all well and good but the FACT is that that can rarely be done for two major reasons.
1)The company designing the game rarely, if ever, has enough money to get in lots of features AND have them well polished, it's sad but true
2)The company PUBLISHING the game sets very strict deadlines, usually, and don't care how done the game is as long as it's technicly playable so they can get their money as soon as possible. If they set less strict deadlines, then it would be more possible but they don't.

[Sergius]

From what I've heard the legs were anatomically wrong, and no humanoid could balance like that effectively. It may have looked more bestial at first glance, but after you think about it for a second it just looks silly.

I don't see why they couldn't, plenty of bipeds are able to walk on digitigrade legs just fine. Birds, for example. And dinosaurs. If a t-rex can balance on legs like that, I don't see why a khajiit couldn't.

Plenty of bipeds yes, not too many humanoids though. Birds have skinny legs that would look weird on lizard and cat races, dinosaurs have the issue of having to animate complex tails for the lizard beast race. We gotta be honest with ourselves here, the beast races in Morrowind looked awkward as hell. It sorta worked with the technical limitations of the animations and stuff, putting it on par with the rest of the graphics in the game. When you increase the graphics and add a more dynamic animation system so combat feels less weird working around those awkward legs becomes a huge problem.

In other words, when they added the Havok physics the cats and lizards probably fell over.

[MorleyDev]

Plus more features that interact = more complexity = more chance of bugs occurring in situations that don't crop-up during testing or being incredibly difficult to track-down and fix.

Hence why Dwarf Fortress has so much unintentional fun ^^

[Virtz]

If they were able to do it with Morrowind's budget, then they could've done it with the much larger one they've got now instead of investing it on stupid shit like dual-wielding maces.

 This brings up two very good points that have already sorta been addressed.

 1. Morrowind didn't pull it off. They had it sure but it looked as awkward and goofy as every other animation.

 2. Different people have different priorities. Some prefer a small list of features that is polished to a mirror shine, and others prefer a haphazard massive list of crazy things one can do. If they focus on making dual maces work then hey, good for them. That is the sort of stuff I want perfected. Others want every crazy half-working thing that can be crammed in with only a second look at balance. Nothing wrong with either approach, I just think they are focusing more on making the core gameplay work better with a modern engine that does not need to adhere to the limitations of past engines.

Oblivion removed digitigrade feet and the animations were still shit.

My point is that they could've put in digitigrade races or spears instead of doing dual-wielding at all. Prioritizing dual-wielding shows that they're focusing more on doing "cool shit" for action gamers over doing things that'd be practical or things that'd add uniqueness. This is fantasy for people who want to be Legolas rather than fantasy for people who want to explore an interesting, semi-coherent world.

"Hey, there's something big attacking us! Dragons! Pull out the heavy crossbows and polearms!"
"Screw that! Let's dual-wield one-handed axes!"
"...what?"
"We'll attack them as they attempt to enter the city through the gates!"
"...what???"

In other words, when they added the Havok physics the cats and lizards probably fell over.

Havok does not work that way.

[Sordid]

Saying a game can have both is all well and good but the FACT is that that can rarely be done for two major reasons.
1)The company designing the game rarely, if ever, has enough money to get in lots of features AND have them well polished, it's sad but true
2)The company PUBLISHING the game sets very strict deadlines, usually, and don't care how done the game is as long as it's technicly playable so they can get their money as soon as possible. If they set less strict deadlines, then it would be more possible but they don't.

There's also a third reason, simple laziness, which IMO is a huge problem that Bethsoft has.

Oh! And for digitigrade animations, try this on for size: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc8y0U43Ng0 Definitive proof, IMO, that it can be done, and extremely well at that.

[MorleyDev]

Actually I think the dual-wielding was more a neat side-effect of trying to create a more flexible weapons system...and also is surprisingly realistic.

Long Sword + Shield = Kind of the point of having a shield and sword
Short Sword + Short Sword = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_swords
Long Sword + Dagger = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_gauche
Shield + Shield = Confused Turtle

[Duke 2.0]

My point is that they could've put in digitigrade races or spears instead of doing dual-wielding at all. Prioritizing dual-wielding shows that they're focusing more on doing "cool shit" for action gamers over doing things that'd be practical or things that'd add uniqueness. This is fantasy for people who want to be Legolas rather than fantasy for people who want to explore an interesting, semi-coherent world.

I just don't see how spears and those feet are more practical or unique. And your point doesn't seem to get in the way of an interesting, semi-coherent world. That's the job of the writers. Spears and weird feet don't seem to be integral to the lore of the world so much as small details that are ultimately optional.

 Oblivion shows that you cant just add all the features. Even their main AAA title they are banking everything on with a ton of hype will have cut features and odd design choices. Even a massive professional studio will have to sorta cut features to stay on a deadline.

 Overgrowth is a completely different custom engine for a different style of game. The engine is also made solely to handle those legs, I imagine placing a humanoid without those legs would produce bizarre results that would require either a semi-sloppy attached code to handle different legs or a rewrite to increase flexibility at the cost of everything taking longer to develop.

[Apple Master]

You people come up with the most inane shit to complain about, really.

[MorleyDev]

The combining of Short Blade and Long Blade into Blade, the combing of Axe and Blunt into Axe (which made no sense) the combat system that's more about player skill than stats (a negative point in an RPG, I'm probably one of the few who actually preferred Morrowind's combat system), and the incredibly retarded guild quests that allowed Conan the Friggin' Barbarian to lead the Mage's Guild are much more worthy of complaining about in Oblivion.

[Virtz]

Short Sword + Short Sword = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_swords

Despite the name, those are pretty much knives, actually. Fore-arm length is the size of a kitchen knife.

Long Sword + Dagger = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_gauche

If they'd program it that way, then I'd be pleasantly surprised. You know, making the knife something for parrying rather than a second attacking weapon for stringing combos.

I just don't see how spears and those feet are more practical or unique. And your point doesn't seem to get in the way of an interesting, semi-coherent world. That's the job of the writers. Spears and weird feet don't seem to be integral to the lore of the world so much as small details that are ultimately optional.

You are facing something bigger. You want a longer weapon so that you're not at a distance disadvantage. You want a polearm. Simple, no? And in a game where the central theme is dragons, you'd expect to fight dragons. Like something bigger than you. To put it in more realistic terms, what melee weapon would a footman want to wield against cavalry?

Humans are the norm for protagonists and "fantasy races", hence the further away from that (anatomically, culturally, etc.), the more unique it gets.

[Vattic]

I just don't see how spears and those feet are more practical or unique. And your point doesn't seem to get in the way of an interesting, semi-coherent world. That's the job of the writers. Spears and weird feet don't seem to be integral to the lore of the world so much as small details that are ultimately optional.

Considering the more homogenised weapons skills it sounds like the difference between some weapons will be mostly aesthetic. I'd of really liked spears given that they would be perfect for dragon slaying.

Overgrowth is a completely different custom engine for a different style of game. The engine is also made solely to handle those legs, I imagine placing a humanoid without those legs would produce bizarre results that would require either a semi-sloppy attached code to handle different legs or a rewrite to increase flexibility at the cost of everything taking longer to develop.

It's still a decent example of digitigrade legs working in a fast paced combat environment. I do see what you mean about how the engine wasn't built with them in mind but they had creative control from the beginning and could have planned for it.

ninja'd at least partly.

[Soadreqm]

If Conan the Friggin' Barbarian wants to lead the mages guild, who's going to stop him?

But yeah, writing is way more important. Morrowind had spears and digitigrade feet, yes. It also had moderately interesting politics with the three great houses, the various imperial guilds, the three gods of the tribunal, the nine gods of the imperial cult, and the various daedra; each with their own motivations and a distinct architectural style. Skyrim could have INFINITY skills and it wouldn't replace Lord Vivec for me. Conversely, there's no real reason you couldn't have a game with nothing but claymore-wielding nords that still had an interesting world. Even if the cell transitions took twelve seconds and the graphics were shit. It's been pulled off by shoddier games in the past.