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[SalmonGod]

I'm actually not a revolutionary.  Well... not an insurrectionist anyway.  I believe in an end to violence, and any form of centralized/coercive authority as a violent institution by nature.  I do not believe that the end justifies the means, mainly because the end will inherit the character of the means used to obtain it.  You can't arm the peasants and ask them to fight for their freedom and then expect them to know how to establish a peaceful way of life when the smoke clears.

Any change which can end in peace must happen by cultural means.  Ideas must be passed on and accepted by enough individuals that the change happens on its own.  Yes, it sounds slow, and I emphasised a lack of time... but we've only had the internet (or any form of mass communication, for that matter) for a short time.  We don't yet understand its power to transform us.

[SalmonGod]

I think all our problems come from the concept of property (as opposed to possession).

Cool story bro, but you kinda lost me after that line.  I like owning things, they are mine.  I enjoy the visceral feeling of power I have over my furniture and groceries and stuff.  Problem is, since I wasn't born rich, in the 21st century I still have to go to work and get money to buy them at stores from other people.  It's a vicious circle and I don't know how to escape it.  Being a hobo is pretty attractive though, they're like real life RPG adventurers.

Yeah... after that line, I explained how those things would be considered possessions, not property.  You can still enjoy your visceral feeling of power over your living room and kitchen.

[Realmfighter]

Everything your saying implies that the culture, not the people are the problem.

The truth?

People are dicks. Just accept it already.

[Argembarger]

Being a hobo is pretty attractive though, they're like real life RPG adventurers.

Heck yeah, who needs this stupid society stuff. Grab your bow and axe, and stomp off to the woods to kill animals, explore caves, and climb mountains until you are strong and experienced enough to be able to walk into peoples houses and rifle through their belongings without them raising a fuss.

[Realmfighter]

"What the hell are you doing in here?!?"

"RAGRAGRAARG"

"Carry on.

[Grakelin]

We should all live life like it's LCS. We'll sleep and eat at a homeless shelter at night, and go to one building to shoot everybody up by day.

By the way, there is still a scarcity of resources. You don't feel this way because you are somewhere between the lower and upper middle class, as evident by your ownership of a computer and access to the internet. Your needs are met. Now, I'm all for spreading our resources around so everybody gets some (STFU Nikov, stay away), but keep in mind that the Upper and Upper-Middle classes aren't the only ones who will have to give something up. You will, too. You're not the peasant.

[ToonyMan]

Being a hobo is pretty attractive though, they're like real life RPG adventurers.

[SalmonGod]

Everything your saying implies that the culture, not the people are the problem.

The truth?

People are dicks. Just accept it already.

I don't think so.  The problem is our social systems naturally reward people for being dicks, and thus people learn to be dicks or waste away in poverty and/or obscurity.

Like I said

But since when do honest intentions win elections or generate profit?... yeah...

[Aqizzar]

Okay, let me rephrase this with the next line-

Property: Anything a person claims control of that isn't directly related to their personal well-being, such as food on a shelf that is owned by a company that is owned by a group of people who will never ever have any personal interaction with that item.

If I'm reading you right, the key to human corruption is... wanting things... or people owning things that they don't interact with...  Or something.  Also, I have ton of possessions that don't directly relate to my well-being, like my computer for instance, that I don't want to part with and enjoy owning.

I'd suggest boning up on some ancient philosophy my friend.  Socrates' magnum opus was his description of a "perfect" society, where everyone worked in common for each other, all had exactly as much food and shelter as they needed, population growth would never be a problem, since when you remove all notion of wealth and profit, a small group of people can infinitely provide for themselves.  And everyone would view each other as family, and crime would be unthinkable let alone impossible.  It could all be done with bronze-age technology.  Half the story is about how much it would suck to live in such a society completely devoid of luxuries, and would be functionally unfeasible to establish with any group of people, down to a single person.

[Realmfighter]

I don't think so.  The problem is our social systems naturally reward people for being dicks, and thus people learn to be dicks or waste away in poverty and/or obscurity.

But from what you say I seem to get the impression that you think wanting power=being a dick.

Ergo, outgoing people are dicks.

[Grakelin]

I know you're just rolling the guy, realmfighter, but I don't see how that connection makes any sense.

[Realmfighter]

What do out going people do?
They out go.
Why do they do this?
Because they want to succeed.
And what does succeeding imply?
Power.

[nbonaparte]

the native americans did it (excepting the mesoamerican civilizations, which worked similarly to bronze age europe), but it can't be done on a large scale. Taking Plato's Republic's notion of everyone being family, there's this to contend with. It's not a matter of culture, it's a matter of scale.

[SalmonGod]

There's not nearly as much scarcity as we're led to believe.  I did some internet research a while back and concluded that roughly 2/3 of the food we produce is wasted, according to an average of all the information I could find on the subject.  Even if I'm wrong, I know it's enough to support the freeganism movement in excess.  People who start feeding themselves by dumpster diving commonly report having more access to food and eating healthier than when they did before, because just so goddamn much perfectly good stuff is thrown away.  Hell, Food Not Bombs provides most of its services with freely gathered food and they feed A LOT of people.

Not to mention it wasn't too long ago that the U.S. undertook its megaproject of kicking millions of people out of their homes just so all those shelters could rot empty, especially with banks keeping the majority of those homes off the market to artificially keep up prices.

And imagine how much more we could provide if the majority of our resources (time, energy, raw materials) didn't go towards killing each other, or perpetuating hollow mass consumerism which only exists to appease the hollow lives of servitude of the majority who put all of THEIR resources into providing as much disgusting excess as possible for those at the top.

Yes, providing equally for everyone would require sacrifice for those in, let's say, the wealthiest 10% of the world's population.  I know I'm probably in there somewhere.  At least I wouldn't be living in guilt as a cog in the machine like I do now.  And before you deplore my lack of integrity for not quitting my job and hitting the streets as soon as my conscience nags me, I have a diabetic child.  It's not an option for me.

I'm not even suggesting a communist-like equal distribution of resources, either.  I'm only saying that it would be much much more equal after this societal structure which requires the vast majority to dedicate their lives to enriching a few is dismantled, and this will not happen as long as any system of property/authority exists, no matter where it falls to the right or the left.

[Grakelin]

Good try trying to use your diabetic child as an excuse, but, and it saddens me every day that this is the case, there aren't enough doctors to go around even among the developed nations, and many of them are choosing to go where they're being paid the most. People with illnesses and health conditions are being propped up by this system. Unless the whole world switched over at once, your kid would not be able to get the medical treatment they needed unless you outsourced back to those doctors. Which is a conversation that Trotsky and Stalin had a hundred years ago, so we aren't exactly paving new ground here.

Also, yeah, you are suggesting Communism. The idea of property and the means of production being used for social control and needing to be removed is extremely Communist. I have nothing against Communism, though.

You can't have a large scale society without authority. You can't even have a small-scale society without authority. We will pick out a leader just out of habit. I can tell you exactly who the leader is among my D&D players, the students in my department, or in my circle of friends, even though none of these are formal institutions created to delegate labour. Hell, even if it was possible, who would be administrating the distribution of all these goods world-wide?