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[Org]

I know why you guys are all doing this, but why the fuck do you assume I'm lurking? Did you idiots even check the time? It's been only about 27 hours since the day started. Spoiler alert: that's well within posting limits.

Well, considering that both of my scum picks turned up town, I'm going to have to redo pretty much everything.

Zathras, thats a pretty strong tunnel there.
Mining like that must take a few days.



I wasn't really sure who to vote, something about the tunnels seemed maybe a little scummy, rereading them now as I type this post.

Passive. Lazy. Suggestions that you yourself don't believe in. Incorrect assumption that reading into evidence is scummy. All very scummy. Vote Org

Out of time.

To whoever asked, I don't read into nightkills without a very good reason.

Is today lylo?

Who said reading into evidence is scummy?
That is dumb. Twist my words, why dont ya?

[Zathras]

Zathras, thats a pretty strong tunnel there.
Mining like that must take a few days.
I wasn't really sure who to vote, something about the tunnels seemed maybe a little scummy, rereading them now as I type this post.

Passive. Lazy. Suggestions that you yourself don't believe in. Incorrect assumption that reading into evidence is scummy. All very scummy. Vote Org

Who said reading into evidence is scummy?
That is dumb. Twist my words, why dont ya?

You did. I read into evidence, you called it tunneling, and called the tunneling scummy. Hence, you called my reading into evidence scummy. No twisting of words.

Do you have any readings into the evidence? Given the colour choices noted, and the conversation yesterday, does that raise any suspicions for you?

Person, IronyOwl, Eduren, same question.

[IronyOwl]

So I was your most suspicious target yesterday? Why did you wait until today to do anything about it?

I didn't. I FoS'd and prodded you.

And stating that I am being hypocritical is purely deflection. It does not refute my accusations.

Then I'll refute them more directly. I was not doing nothing Day 1; I was poking Criptfeind to figure out why he wasn't answering my questions properly. I don't feel leaving my vote on Person was "doing nothing with it" because I still wanted an answer out of him, and I wasn't sure enough of Criptfeind to vote him; besides which, the pressure I had was getting answers.

Furthermore, the fact that the best scumtell you've got on someone is something numerous people, yourself included, are even guiltier of makes me think that's not your real reason, since if it was you'd be explaining yourself and questioning them all. Instead, you've responded with "this isn't about me" and ignored questions regarding anyone else. You are scum who didn't like me voting Mr.Person.

I know why you guys are all doing this, but why the fuck do you assume I'm lurking?

Because you were lurking yesterday.

Do you have any readings into the evidence? Given the colour choices noted, and the conversation yesterday, does that raise any suspicions for you?

Seems reasonable, except for the uncomfortable scenario where you're scum and Jim was the only townie who bothered/remembered to vote. Your version does explain why Jim's avoiding the subject, however.

[Mr.Person]

Bullshit IronyOwl, I wasn't lurking yesterday. Show me one RL day where I didn't post. That's my definition of lurking, going a day without posting. What's yours?

@Zathras: Why do you care what we think about your opinion? Do our opinions change the truth? Do our opinions change your opinion?

[Jetsquirrel]

Ehm.. could i ask what Lylo and Mylo means?

[Jim Groovester]

Lylo = Lynch or lose, a situation where if the town does not lynch scum they will immediately lose. An example is five players alive, two scum, no special roles.

Mylo = Mislynch and lose, a situation where if the town mistakenly lynches a townie they will immediately lose. An example is six players alive, two scum, no special roles.

In the first example, the town has to lynch scum in order to continue with the game. If they lynch a townie instead, the town will equal the scum, which is the requirement for scum victory. If they no-lynch, the scum can use their night kill and equal the town.

In the second example, if the town no-lynches, the scum will use their nightkill and it will be lylo the following day. If the town mislynches, the scum will use their nightkill and they will equal the town on the following day, resulting in a scum victory.

These conditions might not apply to this game, because the scum's win conditions are different than the usual 'equal the number of town' condition.

Now get back to work. I still want to see you hang and you're doing nothing to change my mind.

[IronyOwl]

Bullshit IronyOwl, I wasn't lurking yesterday. Show me one RL day where I didn't post. That's my definition of lurking, going a day without posting. What's yours?

The 27th. Perhaps my definition of lurking is better described as active lurking.

But you're right, you were more active in the middle than I'd remembered.

[Zathras]

@Zathras: Why do you care what we think about your opinion? Do our opinions change the truth? Do our opinions change your opinion?

Well, obviously I care because I want to drive consensus towards a vote for scum today. Opinions don't change yesterday's truth, but they will form today's. And if your opinion points out flawed logic on my part, or find a better explanation, it may change mine, sure.

I don't want to seem repetitive, but I feel I must insist: I find Jim's support of red yesterday, the night support of red, the fact that scum would really have at least one supporter, and his apparent ongoing indifference to the topic to be scummy, and indicative of a) RED being the colour of scum magic, and b) Jim being a scum (though probably not a scum PR).

As for who else is scum, I'm thinking Org is one, and I'm usure about the other.

[Mr.Person]

Zathras, cut the crap. Your whole first paragraph is just you trying to seem nice. You used a whole bunch of words and actually said nothing new except you suspect Org with no explanation.

Seriously, why do you care so much what I or anybody else thinks of you and why aren't you scumhunting? You've got this well-reasoned argument you've made against Jim and now you're just sitting on it for no reason. Instead of pushing Jim to cracking both so you can be sure and to convince everyone else he's scum, you're instead trying to convince everyone else to lynch him based on a theory you have and no other evidence at all.. It's a great theory, but not only is it potentially flawed if the scum decided to try a gambit, it's also based on our trust of you. Let's just say I don't particularly trust you, Zathras.

Bullshit IronyOwl, I wasn't lurking yesterday. Show me one RL day where I didn't post. That's my definition of lurking, going a day without posting. What's yours?

The 27th. Perhaps my definition of lurking is better described as active lurking.

But you're right, you were more active in the middle than I'd remembered.

Oh, alright. Do note that if you're going to accuse me of active lurking, you should bring forth some evidence instead of just saying things and hoping everybody blindly believes you without fact checking or anything.

[Zathras]

Zathras, cut the crap. Your whole first paragraph is just you trying to seem nice. You used a whole bunch of words and actually said nothing new except you suspect Org with no explanation.

Duh, of course it wasn't new. I said it was repetitive, but since I have not seen interesting reactions, I felt it useful to restate it. Regarding Org, I said earlier that quiet Org is scum Org, and you said (and I agreed) that he's scummy for calling reading into evidence scummy. That was like four posts ago, so I didn't think a recap was needed yet.

Seriously, why do you care so much what I or anybody else thinks of you and why aren't you scumhunting?

I don't give a crap about what you or anybody else thinks of me, I care what people think about who's the scum and which arguments are valid. You call my words nice, while Jim called me noobnuts (or something); I don't give the teeniest flying fuck about either of these. I only care about his, and your, and other's reactions to Jim's scummitude, or other leads. And presenting theories, giving opinions on people's reactions, and asking questions is scumhunting, dude.

You've got this well-reasoned argument you've made against Jim and now you're just sitting on it for no reason. Instead of pushing Jim to cracking both so you can be sure and to convince everyone else he's scum, you're instead trying to convince everyone else to lynch him based on a theory you have and no other evidence at all.. It's a great theory, but not only is it potentially flawed if the scum decided to try a gambit, it's also based on our trust of you. Let's just say I don't particularly trust you, Zathras.

I quit poking at Jim since he's already said he's not interested in discussing it, so I asked all of you if you were, or other opinions on the night data. I'm already voting Jim, and assessed his reluctance to discuss this as scummy; there's not much more I can do on that front. But I'm not sitting on it, I'm presenting it at large and asking people to shoot it down, support it, or present alternatives.

As to the last point: I'm not asking you to trust me. I'm asking you for your own interpretation of the night information presented, or to evaluate/reject/whatever mine. At most, I'm asking you to trust my claim that I supported White last night, but even if you don't, it doesn't change much. Does anyone wish to counterclaim that? Did any of you support White last night, branding me a liar?


I'd like to do more scumhunting on other people, but I don't have anything nearly as solid on others yet. Org, I can't read, but I'm suspicious. You & IronyOwl have been butting heads, but neither has really said anything useful yet (but keep going, something out to come out of it). Eduren and JetSquirrel are too lurky for my tastes, and when they come in, they don't say much either. I've asked all of you questions I can think of, but haven't found anything useful to grasp at yet. It'd be helpful if y'all were more active.

It is important to lynch scum today. So I try to drive a consensus based on the closest we have to "data": the night actions and their preparation yesterday. Other than that, we are down to discussing who's lurking more and how they phrased their answer to a trivial RV question.

Or what do you think, Person? How should we proceed? Who are your top three scumpicks for now? How about you, Irony? Or Eduren & JetSquirrel? Any thoughts or useful scumpicks?

[Jim Groovester]

I quit poking at Jim since he's already said he's not interested in discussing it, so I asked all of you if you were, or other opinions on the night data. I'm already voting Jim, and assessed his reluctance to discuss this as scummy; there's not much more I can do on that front. But I'm not sitting on it, I'm presenting it at large and asking people to shoot it down, support it, or present alternatives.

Here you are exercising your creative interpretation of events again.

I wasn't disinterested in discussing it, I said it was pointless. You only asked me one question today, and by the time you asked it you had already made up your mind to vote and accuse me no matter what my answer. So I interpreted this (correctly) as you being completely disinterested and close minded about anything I have to say, so why should I expend effort trying to convince you otherwise when I knew you were going to be implacable? It's a lost cause.

I would have answered questions if you had asked any when you accused me today, but you didn't, completely certain that your incorrect interpretation of events was the absolute truth. There was nothing to discuss.

[IronyOwl]

As to the last point: I'm not asking you to trust me. I'm asking you for your own interpretation of the night information presented, or to evaluate/reject/whatever mine. At most, I'm asking you to trust my claim that I supported White last night, but even if you don't, it doesn't change much.

It seems reasonable to suppose you supported White and Jim supported Red.

It seems reasonable to suppose scum would have at least one supporter.

We don't have any particular reason to think Jim was the scum and you weren't, however. Your premise is essentially "One of these two was scum, and you guys know it's not me, so it's him." Intriguing as the rest of your argument is, it only works the way you've said if we already knew Jim was scum.

Why the circular logic, Zathras?

[Zathras]

As to the last point: I'm not asking you to trust me. I'm asking you for your own interpretation of the night information presented, or to evaluate/reject/whatever mine. At most, I'm asking you to trust my claim that I supported White last night, but even if you don't, it doesn't change much.

It seems reasonable to suppose you supported White and Jim supported Red.

It seems reasonable to suppose scum would have at least one supporter.

We don't have any particular reason to think Jim was the scum and you weren't, however. Your premise is essentially "One of these two was scum, and you guys know it's not me, so it's him." Intriguing as the rest of your argument is, it only works the way you've said if we already knew Jim was scum.

Why the circular logic, Zathras?

You make a good point. For backup on this we need to go back to Jim's "original" scummitude: proposing the plan in the first place, and reluctance to drop it even in the face of provable drawbacks for town. His proposing it was scummy, his defence of it was worse, and his dropping the topic altogether the morning after is the clincher. Even Criptfeind, who originally supported it as seeing it beneficial for him (as Black sorcerer) had second thoughts later when he realised it would gimp the other town PR. But Jim had no such qualms, as even one or two people buying into his spiel would be very beneficial for him (as scum).

But I do agree that there's an implied circularity about my towniness. I'm OK with the idea that "one of Jim and Zathras is scum"; so if the rest of you guys think I'm full of shit, vote me and support Red. If you don't, vote him and support White.

I'm humble enough to realise there's a possibility that Jim is just superhumanly stubborn, and that there's a scum White sorcerer laughing his ass off. But this would require us to believe that all the scum chose to support "none". Even as lazy as people sometimes are, I find this hard to swallow. It would be borderline incompetence.

The only other option is that both Red and White are town PRs (as Black was), and scum are all vanilla, but I doubt it because a) that would be rather unbalanced, and b) Janus sorta let it slip there are scum PRs in the day opening post ("You'll have to find a Dark Sorcerer today, or you're going to be in deep trouble!").

...or I'm OK with other ideas as far as securing a scum lynch today. I'll support a lynch of Org if the rest of you guys think he's scum. Unfortunately, of the rest, I'm not getting enough of a reading to be ready to vote them just yet.

[Jim Groovester]

What, no, that's all wrong.

You originally suspected me because Criptfeind was buddying up to me. Don't misrepresent the facts. Whatever your reptilian brain said about me and the fucking goddamn plan came after you concluded that Criptfeind, being the scum that he was, was buddying up to me. Funny how that turned out.

And about the fucking goddamn plan you've got your panties in a bunch about: there was no point talking about it today because there's no further advantage to be gained from organizing the support. The scum school cannot be conclusively determined with only two schools and five apprentices remaining.

And let's get a few more things out of the way.

But I do agree that there's an implied circularity about my towniness. I'm OK with the idea that "one of Jim and Zathras is scum"; so if the rest of you guys think I'm full of shit, vote me and support Red. If you don't, vote him and support White.

BAD IDEA.

BAD FUCKING IDEA.

Proposing an either/or lynch at lylo (and in general) is a terrific way to lose games. It focuses the game on two individuals and easily lets the scum blend into the background.

Shit like this should be obvious.

...or I'm OK with other ideas as far as securing a scum lynch today. I'll support a lynch of Org if the rest of you guys think he's scum. Unfortunately, of the rest, I'm not getting enough of a reading to be ready to vote them just yet.

Now this is interesting.

So you only support an Org lynch if everybody else feels up to it? A mercenary attitude to your vote like this is incredibly suspicious.

Why are you making the condition of your vote if everybody else thinks he's scum? What do you think? It's incredibly scummy to say you're not sure about Org but also to support his lynch.

[Eduren]

So I was your most suspicious target yesterday? Why did you wait until today to do anything about it?

I didn't. I FoS'd and prodded you.

So? If I was the scummiest person yesterday why didn't you VOTE me. You were just casting suspicion and not pushing or scumhunting. That's why you're scum.

And stating that I am being hypocritical is purely deflection. It does not refute my accusations.

Then I'll refute them more directly. I was not doing nothing Day 1; I was poking Criptfeind to figure out why he wasn't answering my questions properly. I don't feel leaving my vote on Person was "doing nothing with it" because I still wanted an answer out of him, and I wasn't sure enough of Criptfeind to vote him; besides which, the pressure I had was getting answers.

Furthermore, the fact that the best scumtell you've got on someone is something numerous people, yourself included, are even guiltier of makes me think that's not your real reason, since if it was you'd be explaining yourself and questioning them all. Instead, you've responded with "this isn't about me" and ignored questions regarding anyone else. You are scum who didn't like me voting Mr.Person.

Thanks you very much. It doesn't make your deflection any less scummy though.

And I feel that your vote was doing nothing. First lets examine the rationale you gave me for voting Mr.Person. You claim that there is a question you want answering. Which is it? It couldn't be this one (your original reason to vote him), he had answered that very quickly. So it must be this one. Mr.Person did indeed not respond to it, but you didn't seem to care much. You didn't make it an issue, let alone mention it again until today. That's odd. You didn't care about it yesterday, but you do today! The only way I feel that this can be seen is that you had no reasons yesterday to leave your vote on Person and any reasons you claim today are fabrications.

Now, even if you were voting Mr.Person for the reasons that you claimed, I don't see why your vote should have been there. As you stated, I was looking like the scummiest person in the game to you. Don't you think that that warrants a vote? Don't you think that a vote on your scumpick would have been more useful than getting the answer to a question that didn't really matter?

THAT, right there ^^, is the scumtell I have on you. now, you claim that you are not the only one exhibiting this scumtell. Please, please, tell me who else is doing this. Because I can go after them for it too.