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[wierd]

Word bro.

[Maximum Spin]

The thing is, Alkeno will discuss childhood sweethearts at BAAT. (Psst--- they are female.)

Then, suddenly, because male shep is supportive over his biotic handicaps, "OH SHEPHARD, I HAVE THE HOTS FOR YOU!" out of nowhere.

No. Straight up "Suddenly gay!"

Sounds like "suddenly bi" to me. Which is 100% totally realistic, from "childhood sweethearts all heterosexual" through "never brings that up – because why would you need to bring that up out of the blue? In discussing one's childhood sweethearts is one expected to add the disclaimer 'but even though they're all girls I'm totally bi now'? Unless, of course, you're specifically telling this to someone you now want to pursue – until he has both developed an interest in you and is comfortable enough to make a pass".

The latter games seem to decide that because I have spurned all the female love interests, that I *MUST* be gay, instead of you know-- professional, or asexual. Being either of those two does not exclude being earnest, being emotionally supportive of friends and colleagues--- but no. Keep Alenko, be supportive about his L2 implant problems, and BLAMMO, Suddenly in your face gay advances.

I also don't see a character making an advance on you as the story assuming you must be gay - is it assuming you must be straight when the women make advances on you? It sounds more like the character imagining that there's at least a chance you'll respond favourably. Which of course a person very well might in that situation.

people's preferences can change -- just not because they found the one person hot enough to change it for them.

I genuinely know people for whom that happened.

[wierd]

Secretly Bi I could maybe see, but why secretly?  Again-- several hundred years in the future, with a very liberal bent on human society's trajectory.  In just 50 or so years we have gone from public lynching of gay people to gay marriage.  In the several hundred years we are talking here, being openly bi would be as ordinary as being openly straight, or openly gay.  Just something a person is.  There is likely no reason to keep it a secret, because there is nothing to be ashamed of or worried about.

The topic of childhood sweethearts comes up in game 1. You can ask Kaidan about his childhood, which he expresses as being rather unpleasant. You can ask if there was anything that made it more bearable, and kaidan will reveal information about said sweetheart. Normally, a bisexual person will not exclude a gender from such a conversation. (I have had several such conversations, and it has never been so.) Casual conversation is a very good barometer to determine a person's innate sexuality, because they will spend lots of time discussing people they liked, and patterns in attraction will naturally appear, even if they dont mean to. Kaidan exhibits a clearly heterosexual pattern, with a preference for tough girls.

Then suddenly-- in disc 3-- he falls madly in love with male shepherd for being honestly concerned about his safety after the mars mission and getting him a thoughtful get well present.

If Kaidan is secretly bi, why be secretive about it? If Kaidan had the hots for shepherd since disc 1, his dialog would have hinted at that unless he was conditioning himself to not reveal anything, which again-- he was failing miserably at.

[Maximum Spin]

Secretly Bi I could maybe see, but why secretly?  Again-- several hundred years in the future, with a very liberal bent on human society's trajectory.  In just 50 or so years we have gone from public lynching of gay people to gay marriage.  In the several hundred years we are talking here, being openly bi would be as ordinary as being openly straight, or openly gay.  Just something a person is.  There is likely no reason to keep it a secret, because there is nothing to be ashamed of or worried about.

Yet there is also no reason to bring it up, either, because it's totally normal, any more than you'd specifically bring up being straight.

The topic of childhood sweethearts comes up in game 1. You can ask Kaidan about his childhood, which he expresses as being rather unpleasant. You can ask if there was anything that made it more bearable, and kaidan will reveal information about said sweetheart. Normally, a bisexual person will not exclude a gender from such a conversation. (I have had several such conversations, and it has never been so.)

I'm not totally sure what you mean by "exclude a gender". If you mean "not explicitly mention the gender of people that person was attracted to", that's the exact opposite of my experience - that is, I've never heard anyone of any sexuality specifically mention that a particular childhood sweetheart (say) was a boy or a girl, outside of the vocabulary limitations of the language (pronouns and "boy/girlfriend" in English, noun gender in many languages, etc.) If, on the contrary, you meant "only mention people of a particular gender", that's somehow even further from my experience; many bisexual people report having had only heterosexual childhood relationships or crushes. A few even report having had only homosexual ones. I can't actually think of anyone I know personally who definitely didn't, although I don't talk about childhood sweethearts with people much.

Casual conversation is a very good barometer to determine a person's innate sexuality, because they will spend lots of time discussing people they liked, and patterns in attraction will naturally appear, even if they dont mean to. Kaidan exhibits a clearly heterosexual pattern, with a preference for tough girls.

Yeah, no, I know people your "pattern" theory here would explicitly fail with in exactly the same way. So it's not odd at all to me. (Also, uh, some people just don't spend a lot of time discussing people they liked either, you know.)

If Kaidan is secretly bi, why be secretive about it? If Kaidan had the hots for shepherd since disc 1, his dialog would have hinted at that unless he was conditioning himself to not reveal anything, which again-- he was failing miserably at.

Professionalism? Not thinking Shepard would be interested in return? Simply not developing feelings about Shepard until later? Any combination of the three? I've never tried to suggest that Kaidan was hiding anything on purpose - I've never played the game and have no idea about the backstory - but the simple pattern of behaviour you describe is 100% plausibly realistic.

[Rolan7]

I totally agree that modern games go a bit far with wish fulfillment and player power...  But is this really a case of it being a problem?  It's merely very improbable, and only if you consider alternate playthroughs.  Is Ashley a lesbian if femshep doesn't hit on her?

I think it is, provided we accept that games can teach people things, because it's implying that there's some way to get anyone you might like to be attracted to you; it ties into the larger problem of romance being a reward, but it goes further and says that this reward is always attainable. In other words, if the feelings aren't mutual, you've got work to do.

I know this is an oversimplification but, these are very violent games which don't teach violence.  Games can definitely teach, but players can generally tell the difference between fantasy and reality.  Someone would need to be exceptionally sheltered to actually believe that they can bed anyone they put their mind to, or that everyone is perfectly bi.  It's a clear power fantasy (:

There are a lot of ways for people thinking they can "fix" their objet d'amour's disinterest to go wrong, many of which are made worse when we consider that people's preferences can change -- just not because they found the one person hot enough to change it for them. I'd rather avoid people thinking "they'd be lesbian/gay/straight if only I were good enough."

...While I personally think most people are at least a little on the spectrum, yeah, that's not a good message to be teaching.  I don't think Mass Effect does though.  Nobody's at all reluctant in their sexuality...  you barely have to win them over at all, really.  Which would also be a bad lesson, except that's it's explicitly just a power fantasy.

People do mistake fantasies for real-life lessons, but that's such a worse problem in movies than games.  Romcoms especially, ugh.  Some of those really should be rated just so impressionable teens don't get wrong ideas about relationships.  It's fine, as long as you can tell what's real and what's indulgent fantasy.
(Mainly talking about actual romcoms instead of accidental ones like Twilight, but it's actually an excellent example.  PG-13 my butt.)

Then suddenly-- in disc 3-- he falls madly in love with male shepherd for being honestly concerned about his safety after the mars mission and getting him a thoughtful get well present.

If Kaidan is secretly bi, why be secretive about it? If Kaidan had the hots for shepherd since disc 1, his dialog would have hinted at that unless he was conditioning himself to not reveal anything, which again-- he was failing miserably at.

Kaidan suddenly hitting on you like crazy out of the blue does sound jarring and inconsistent.  I don't see it as a change of orientation, it's just weird that he's noticing MaleShep so abruptly.  Of course, it's actually because they didn't finish making him bi in the first game, because amazon space lesbians stole the budget /s

[wierd]

Maxspin, here is the casual conversation in question where the female interest is mentioned.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kVlxJSAgxY8

As rolan points out, you don't have to try hard to romance people in these games. Suddenly sexual kaidan is out of the blue.

[Rolan7]

OMG forget all of this, I just had a bear almost cut me off from my apartment.  It's literally freezing out, shouldn't they be hibernating??
Neighbors had mentioned it, like... about 2 months ago.  Guess it's still coming around??
I was pulling an all-nighter loading my car and taking out trash, but screwit.  Not like I can drive this junk to my new place without some sleep, anyway.  Or should be lugging trash bags through bear country.  I guess 4AM is thear time.

[CABL]

Creepiest ice cream commercial ever...

Also, Rickrolling, now in Europa Universalis IV!

[Mech#4]

I do think Maximum Spin has a point, though I also have to agree that the romances in Mass Effect 1 didn't require much effort to go from companions to lovers. In my game I played as a male Shepard and when Kaiden died at the choice, because I comforted Ashley afterwards, as she was blaming herself for my decision, I was put in a romance with her despite having had very little prior conversation with her.
I believe the game bases relationship progression off of how much of the NPCs background you ask about, but because in roleplaying games you tend to want to exhaust conversation topics asking about someones past and problems, especially if they change between chapters, you end up starting the romance paths.

[Maximum Spin]

Maxspin, here is the casual conversation in question where the female interest is mentioned.

I believed you that he mentioned it, I just don't see why having mentioned a female love interest makes later having a male one intrinsically surprising.

[Dunamisdeos]

WHOA WHOA HOLD THE PHONE.

The narrow-mindedness of the Jedi is directly responsible for the existence of the Sith, also the Jedi effectively glassed the Sith homeworld out of a sense of retribution. The Jedi are no different, the Sith just don't hide what they are and put on airs. The Jedi have a comfy tower of luxury to nap in while they play hero, but when they get pushed they are capable of the same level of atrocity.

"Good" and "Evil" in Star Wars just indicate whether you conduct business from the bridge of a Super Star Destroyer, or whatever is left after my Super Star Destroyer is finished with you.

[BlackHeartKabal]

Also, Rickrolling, now in Europa Universalis IV!

why would I click that unless I wanted to be rickrolled

[hector13]

You are a masochist. Do it.

[CABL]

Also, Rickrolling, now in Europa Universalis IV!

why would I click that unless I wanted to be rickrolled

Actually, it leads to a mod for EU4, not the actual rickroll*. I also actually like that song.

*Check my post on the previous page.

[Reelya]

Haha double rickrolled.