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[wierd]

This will surely get some people angry with me but, this is something that has bothered me for awhile now about games with romance plotlines, and how they handle gay romances. (brought on by recent divinity 2 discuss)

To be up front, I feel it breaks the narrative to just "NOW SUDDENLY GAY!!" the characters. Take for instance, the Mass Effect romances. Kaidan Alenko appears totally straight the entire game-- until suddenly, without warning "YEAH, SUDDENLY GAY!" if you are the slightest bit supportive.  I understand that many gay people conceal their sexuality (and that this is unhealthy-- and that "coming out" is somehow a romantic thing) but remember that this story takes place in a distant future where presumably, progressivism has been marching steadily onwards, and where the vestigial stigmas of being openly gay no longer exist, so why include them in the game like that?    I find it jarring, and silly.

Not to mention that one of the subtly unspoken reasons why a game house would want to "YEAH, NOW SUDDENLY GAY!!" a character is because "different strokes for different folks", and "games are flagrant wish fulfillment."  I feel this breaks the suspension of disbelief, because it makes characters behave in a suddenly completely different fashion just because the player has taken a fancy to them.  Much like the real world, just because you like somebody does not mean they will like you back, especially like that.  I have no problems with gay characters, or gay romances in games--- I have problems with the "NOW SUDDENLY GAY!" that seems so common place.

Really-- WTF.

[Trekkin]

Really-- WTF.

Well, as a partial explanation: LGBT+ characters are the focus of executive meddling like you wouldn't believe, and one of the big concerns is being too stereotypical. These characters generate what executives worship as "buzz", but not as much as they used to, and the execs have grown increasingly worried about the controversy leading to both boycotts by anti-whatever people and people of the same demographic as the character feeling alienated because they're being caricatured, counteracting the usual bump in sales from free publicity. Having a character reveal they're not straight in an affectedly casual manner with no prior indication whatsoever is the usual corporate overcorrection. "See!?! They're just like you! Just like you, we tell you! Please don't hate us!"

It's like how in the 90s the kid in the wheelchair was always a superhero at whatever they tried to show how the studio understood "the handicapped", or how female characters in action movies needed to be vastly more competent than men and totally emotionless in order to be "strong female characters." It's usually not the writers coming up with this inanity; it's the execs leaning over with marketing data and demanding that their stuff have the most currently acceptable caricatures in it.

[wierd]

I suppose so-- "Follow the money" is usually at the root of most things that are objectionable, but really-- the issue could be solved with a more diverse cast of characters, rather than making EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER into a "SECRETLY GAY!!" person just waiting for the right waifu--- erhm... Protagonist to come unlock their loins for them.

I think that sending that message is very dangerous.

[Eric Blank]

Aaaand now my jeep doesnt want to start

This shit always happens to me

[Trekkin]

I suppose so-- "Follow the money" is usually at the root of most things that are objectionable, but really-- the issue could be solved with a more diverse cast of characters, rather than making EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER into a "SECRETLY GAY!!" person just waiting for the right waifu--- erhm... Protagonist to come unlock their loins for them.

I think that sending that message is very dangerous.

Absolutely, and it feeds into an even bigger message that games often send implicitly: whatever you decide is right. Being powerful, being the PC, means being able to inflict your will on people without opposition from anyone who isn't evil. Look at how Dishonored had to fight to get its evil ending to actually tell the player off for being a complete psychopath, or how Neverwinter Nights 2 had a great narrative about bad heroes (not antiheroes, but heroes who are just bad at heroism) but never ever even risked having the PC be considered one of them.

There need to be more games where sympathetic characters tell you "no." Not just by leaving the party when your Karma meter drops too low (to be replaced by cheerful antiheroes), not just by presenting a complex moral choice system, but actually telling the player unequivocally "I think you made the wrong call here and here's why." That definitely extends into romance. I want to see PCs' weird, quasi-therapeutic advances shot down by people who just don't feel that way about them, whose apologies ring of courtesy rather than genuine regret. Like Mira in KOTOR 2, only without the stroking of the PC's ego.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

KOTOR 2 did it in an interesting way. Your party is genuinely a mix of people with nowhere to go or effective slaves to the PC, and it isn't brushed over. It's also not bushed over that people's interest in you and your power is basically a supernatural catastrophe in the making. In a way, it makes the PC somewhat more sympathetic since they didn't have a choice in being a force singularity and originally got that way just by trying to end a galaxy destroying war.

[Tiruin]

Really-- WTF.

Well, as a partial explanation: LGBT+ characters are the focus of executive meddling like you wouldn't believe, and one of the big concerns is being too stereotypical. These characters generate what executives worship as "buzz", but not as much as they used to, and the execs have grown increasingly worried about the controversy leading to both boycotts by anti-whatever people and people of the same demographic as the character feeling alienated because they're being caricatured, counteracting the usual bump in sales from free publicity. Having a character reveal they're not straight in an affectedly casual manner is the usual corporate overcorrection. "See!?! They're just like you! Just like you, we tell you! Please don't hate us!"

I hope they'd just notice that by 'peddling' the idea like that, it subtly follows the notion as if it's something to be peddled -.- not as if it's something that existed since far back as a social norm in the first place.

But what baffles me in part is why that kind of notion didn't or doesn't seemingly catch on? Sentimentality and depth of reasoning and value is something that "sells", if to nudge the marketing ideology, and also helps word of mouth and the legacy of whatever is being sold anyway. Really loved the games where people who are LGBT+ are just...there. Casually. And its a social norm being represented as is.

PPE: Aurgh 4x replies ninjas.

[Mech#4]

KOTOR 2 did it in an interesting way. Your party is genuinely a mix of people with nowhere to go or effective slaves to the PC, and it isn't brushed over. It's also not bushed over that people's interest in you and your power is basically a supernatural catastrophe in the making. In a way, it makes the PC somewhat more sympathetic since they didn't have a choice in being a force singularity and originally got that way just by trying to end a galaxy destroying war.

I remember in KOTOR 2 some of the dialogue mentions the amount of control you have over your party members. How they unquestioningly follow your orders during combat, doing things they normally wouldn't even consider. I think one character says something like "We were just standing here talking, then suddenly we were all fighting and they're all dead. I don't know how to feel about this. When combat begins we're all in this together". I find KOTOR 2 really interesting for a lot of these elements.

[Trekkin]

KOTOR 2 did it in an interesting way. Your party is genuinely a mix of people with nowhere to go or effective slaves to the PC, and it isn't brushed over. It's also not bushed over that people's interest in you and your power is basically a supernatural catastrophe in the making. In a way, it makes the PC somewhat more sympathetic since they didn't have a choice in being a force singularity and originally got that way just by trying to end a galaxy destroying war.

I remember in KOTOR 2 some of the dialogue mentions the amount of control you have over your party members. How they unquestioningly follow your orders during combat, doing things they normally wouldn't even consider. I think one character says something like "We were just standing here talking, then suddenly we were all fighting and they're all dead. I don't know how to feel about this. When combat begins we're all in this together". I find KOTOR 2 really interesting for a lot of these elements.

KOTOR 2 did it by lampshading, which was kind of its whole schtick: it was a superficially classic Star Wars story that held up all the problems with Star Wars and the kinds of stories you usually tell in settings like it, particularly with the Force and how it interacts with fate. It was great, but ultimately it was all missable. You could play through the whole thing and just think it was kind of normal, especially if you didn't use Arren Kae much or make a concerted effort to see how far you could go. Of course, part of this was because it was parodying KOTOR 1, and a lot of people just played it like its predecessor and got the ending and walked away content.

[Mech#4]

It took me reading the dialogue a number of times, as well as reading some other peoples analysis of the game to get a better understanding of what was going on. Kreia would berate you if you acted good for the sake of it as well as if you acted evil for the sake of it, asking you to think more about why your doing things.

That it was missable I think was a good thing because it meant, unless the player actually noticed these things, it kind of highlighted how strong the Good vs Evil conventions are in the Star Wars universe, the end boss falling into this convention despite trying to be apart from it. Jedi are Good because they're Jedi, Sith are Evil because they're Sith, Jedi are always in the right, Sith in the wrong. These themes have been explored in other media and settings but something that hadn't really been done in Star Wars before.

[Rolan7]

This will surely get some people angry with me but, this is something that has bothered me for awhile now about games with romance plotlines, and how they handle gay romances. (brought on by recent divinity 2 discuss)

To be up front, I feel it breaks the narrative to just "NOW SUDDENLY GAY!!" the characters. Take for instance, the Mass Effect romances. Kaidan Alenko appears totally straight the entire game-- until suddenly, without warning "YEAH, SUDDENLY GAY!" if you are the slightest bit supportive.  I understand that many gay people conceal their sexuality (and that this is unhealthy-- and that "coming out" is somehow a romantic thing) but remember that this story takes place in a distant future where presumably, progressivism has been marching steadily onwards, and where the vestigial stigmas of being openly gay no longer exist, so why include them in the game like that?    I find it jarring, and silly.

I didn't actually encounter this, since I only played 1...  Where Kaidan is completely heterosexual.  Apparently they did almost all the voice work, but cut it late in development.  Whereas the lesbian options, of course, were a major selling point.

I totally agree that modern games go a bit far with wish fulfillment and player power...  But is this really a case of it being a problem?  It's merely very improbable, and only if you consider alternate playthroughs.  Is Ashley a lesbian if femshep doesn't hit on her?

I happened to play as femshep, mostly because I preferred the VA's performance.  I found Kaidan more attractive than Ashley and enjoyed the romance.  Was Ashley even lesbian in my playthrough?  The thing is, you say Kaidan never acts gay...  I don't remember any of the party acting straight, either.  They're just not flirty, except with the player character.  I just don't see a problem with that.

In fact it bothers me that they dropped the gay in 1, and sorta advertised the game with lesbians (I kinda hate how conveniently marketable the Asari are).  The idea of having to be feminine for a guy bothers me a *lot* nowadays.  I don't want that in my space adventure.

So... I'm glad they corrected that in the sequels.  IDK, it probably feels more natural for me since it matches my own outlook.  "Oh, these people aren't repulsed by a gender, or even alien features?  Kinda refreshing."

It's a lot of effort to script and voice these options, so I appreciate it...  Not enough to install Origin, but hey   I'm also glad Skyrim isn't hetero-only, though I'm not sure that involved literally any effort XD  All the dialogue is so generic.

[wierd]

The thing is, Alkeno will discuss childhood sweethearts at BAAT. (Psst--- they are female.)

Then, suddenly, because male shep is supportive over his biotic handicaps, "OH SHEPHARD, I HAVE THE HOTS FOR YOU!" out of nowhere.

No. Straight up "Suddenly gay!"

The latter games seem to decide that because I have spurned all the female love interests, that I *MUST* be gay, instead of you know-- professional, or asexual. Being either of those two does not exclude being earnest, being emotionally supportive of friends and colleagues--- but no. Keep Alenko, be supportive about his L2 implant problems, and BLAMMO, Suddenly in your face gay advances.

[Rolan7]

Aw, really?  I liked that you could kindly shoot down the romance in 1.  It's almost like there are bigger priorities - like collecting weird rocks!  Or being professional or asexual, totally.

[wierd]

Litterally, he just up and gives you an invite to have a drink with him on the citadel, then gushes all over you about how badly he wants you.  No real flirting, just concerned interest in his childhood and his career, like a good friend should be. Alenko does take getting friend-zoned pretty well, but it seems like after that the game's romance engine just does not know what to do with you. LOL.

[Trekkin]

I totally agree that modern games go a bit far with wish fulfillment and player power...  But is this really a case of it being a problem?  It's merely very improbable, and only if you consider alternate playthroughs.  Is Ashley a lesbian if femshep doesn't hit on her?

I think it is, provided we accept that games can teach people things, because it's implying that there's some way to get anyone you might like to be attracted to you; it ties into the larger problem of romance being a reward, but it goes further and says that this reward is always attainable. In other words, if the feelings aren't mutual, you've got work to do.

Obviously, this is not the case in real life with any real frequency, and if we are going to take other forms of media to task for setting unrealistic expectations of relationships, then we should probably be annoyed with games that implicitly present incompatible sexualities as a problem to be solved rather than a fact to be accepted. Even if the games retcon themselves so that every character has always been compatible with the PC depending on playthrough, that's still avoiding having to tell the PC that sometimes people just aren't into each other for a variety of immutable reasons.

There are a lot of ways for people thinking they can "fix" their objet d'amour's disinterest to go wrong, many of which are made worse when we consider that people's preferences can change -- just not because they found the one person hot enough to change it for them. I'd rather avoid people thinking "they'd be lesbian/gay/straight if only I were good enough."