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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14474188 times)

Deadmeat1471

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4695 on: February 05, 2012, 12:39:34 pm »

I would say the Confederate flag represents a nation who once primarily promoted states rights, and had slaves.
It's no different than toating a Roman flag or British flag or Orange free state flag.
People seem to think that because slavery was involved, that flag and that nation are morally beyond any reconciliation. I'd say the CSA sure as hell reconciled itself into a united America.

At this point, the CSA is dead. The flag no longer stands for slavery and arguably never did, it may stand for states rights as this is still a relevant issue in the USA today(though not much). It's a historical cultural piece from a gone age. I myself have a Confederate flag and I'm British, however I have a great love for history.
It sure as hell doesn't stand for racism, and the many racists who toat it and spew their filth doit it a great injustice. Americans were all racist in those days, it wasnt a uniquely Confederate thing, as were most of the world racist. Whether slavery existed or not.
Maintaining that in the modern day shows a lack of basic intelligence and understanding of history.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 12:49:41 pm by Deadmeat1471 »
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palsch

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4696 on: February 05, 2012, 01:11:03 pm »

It sure as hell doesn't stand for racism, and the many racists who toat it and spew their filth doit it a great injustice.
Flags (and all symbols) have the meaning they are given by society. Just because the swastika has a genuine history as a Buddhist and Hindu symbol doesn't mean you can ignore it's Nazi association today. The Battle Flag of the Confederacy was initially an entirely martial symbol of the south, with all the connotations that includes (and yes, that includes defending slavery). Since then it has been strongly adopted by racist groups as their symbol, as well as by neo-Confederates who love to revise history while calling for a new secession. Neither of these are groups I would want to be associated with, so I would never want to be associated with the flag.

There are those who genuinely use it for meanings entirely divorced from the negative reading people take from it. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a great many people have a negative reaction to it; this poll suggests 30% to only 8% with a positive reaction. It is gradually becoming a neutral symbol, but that doesn't mean it doesn't still have strong negative connotations for a decent chunk of the population.
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Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4697 on: February 05, 2012, 01:12:14 pm »

And the swastika is actually, what, supposed to be invoking protection from Thor, innit? Or a Buddhist good luck symbol, depending.

Point being. Yeah, viewing th'confed flag as supporting racism is indeed ignoring swaths of history, but the actual meaning of it has been perverted in the general culture. It's used as a symbol of intolerance and racism by an unfortunate amount of people, currently, which corrupts whatever "pure" intentions might be associated with it.

That sort of thing happens when the group using the symbol has been (rightly or not) demonized. Yeah, it's perverting and misrepresenting the actual history, but good luck convincing the population at large of it.

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Deadmeat1471

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4698 on: February 05, 2012, 01:16:53 pm »

No one who takes the Confederate flag nowadays is promoting slavery. Some promote racism, yes, but as I said, they are a disgrace to the human race and devoid of all reason.

Robert E. Lee (The head of the Confederate Army) himself said that the civil war was worth it if only to have the same result, i e the freeing of the slaves.

To say the Confederate flag is inherently racist is to say the British flag is racist as both at one point held slaves and promoted slavery. The only difference is the CSA nation lost the Civil War and the British nation survived into abolition.

Granted Americans will see it negitively, just as they vote for George Bush and oppose universal healthcare for all. Just because some idiots have a kneejerk or uneducated reaction to a flag doesn't mean the flag itself should be branded as offensive.

Racists use a great many people and symbols to represent their racism, one is the christian cross for example, yet the cross isn't considered offensive. Yet the religion promotes slavery. If the CS flag can't adapt to modern society and understanding, why should the bible?

I would extend this to the swastika, obviously you shouldn't deliberatly toat one at a jewish synagog because many people have no idea what other conotations it may have and the Swastika has a far more abhorent history. But the Swastika isn't in itself a racist symbol, wearing a swastika and shouting SEIG HIEL! and DEATH TO JEWS is a bit more suspect however.

Company's like paradox have banned mention of jews and swastikas in their games to avoid any possiblility of lawsuit and thus loss of revenue, I find this disgraceful.
These symbols and issues should be shown and discussed historically and should be educated upon the populous. Not hidden because people are too scared of lawsuits or questions.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 01:29:28 pm by Deadmeat1471 »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4699 on: February 05, 2012, 01:21:54 pm »

Actually, I've seen very few people ever using it as a racist symbol. In fact, I can only recall seeing it used in that since twice. In my entire lifetime. Mostly, you see it used as a generic sumbol of the Southern US, and of independence in general. If you go to many events in the Toledo (nowadays mostly a black and Hispanic population in the areas I'm referring to) area, you'ld think that the Army of Northern Virginia was camped there because there are so many Confederate Battle Flags in clothing or other decorations. It may be soemthing of a regional thing, but it's hardly an automatic "evil" symbol in the way a swastika or Klan hood is.
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palsch

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4700 on: February 05, 2012, 01:28:19 pm »

To say the Confederate flag is inherently racist is to say the British flag is racist as both at one point held slaves and promoted slavery. The only difference is the CSA nation lost the Civil War and the British nation survived into abolition.
A symbol isn't inherently anything, it has whatever meaning it is given by others. A flag is the purest symbol possible.
Quote
Granted Americans will see it negitively, just as they vote for George Bush and oppose universal healthcare for all. Just because some idiots have a kneejerk or uneducated reaction to a flag doesn't mean the flag itself should be branded as offensive.
People are offended by the flag. Therefore the flag is offensive.

That doesn't mean that flying it is necessarily wrong, but it should be understood that flying it is going to offend people. You can dismiss their feelings as worthless but it would be nice to acknowledge and understand that they have them, maybe try to understand why they do.

How people deal with symbols others find offensive is entirely up to them. For companies and other groups that want to be inclusive, avoiding insult is probably a good path, commercially and morally.

Educating people as to history and what you view as the correct reading of a symbol is one thing. Waving the symbol around and attacking people for being offended is quite another. One of them could potentially work, leading to greater understanding and less offence taken on both sides. The other just entrenches things more.
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Deadmeat1471

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4701 on: February 05, 2012, 01:33:12 pm »

Wearing the flag may be offensive to some people, but thats absolutely fine. They should invite discussion about the flag. I find capitalism offensive and all symbols of it, but I don't say they should be banned because they offend people... and The CSA flag has a hell of alot of more people who value it than what my views are.

What I'm saying is no one should be able to say these things should be banned from public view or whatnot because weak hearts might not be able to handle it.

Discussion of the issue breeds reconciliation and understanding, raging against a flag or idea without talking to the other side breeds ignorance and conflict, the very ignorance that lead people to keep slaves in the first place. The very conflict that lead to the civil war.

Let's not continue this here though k? were going off topic (yes I know I started it).
Let's agree to more or less agree.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 01:34:43 pm by Deadmeat1471 »
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palsch

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4702 on: February 05, 2012, 01:37:42 pm »

What I'm saying is no one should be able to say these things should be banned from public view or whatnot because weak hearts might not be able to handle it.
Just want to hit this point before I drop this entirely.

I'm pretty much for banning banning things. On the other hand, I strongly support trigger warnings or warnings on content people may find offensive, giving them choice over whether or not to view them. People who view such warnings as censorship worry me a little.

But anyway, that's getting into a whole different (and frustratingly frequent) problem that comes up.

New WTF (that I was going to post in the election thread); this tweet.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4703 on: February 05, 2012, 01:43:32 pm »

The problem isn't with the flag, the problem is with the racist asshats who use it as their symbol. For better or for worse, that association exists, and will continue to exist as long as bigots use it as a shield against reasonable moral objection. I'm strongly opposed to the practice of political correctness as it currently exists, but that doesn't mean that I think people should be able to parade around outdated, offensive beliefs and then hide behind a symbol and cry foul when people call them on it.
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Deadmeat1471

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4704 on: February 05, 2012, 01:45:35 pm »



New WTF (that I was going to post in the election thread); this tweet.

Maybe its because i'm British but I don't understand a word of this. I am also WTF?ing

*Or maybe its because I dont use twitter  :P
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 01:47:36 pm by Deadmeat1471 »
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Flying Dice

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4705 on: February 05, 2012, 01:48:41 pm »



New WTF (that I was going to post in the election thread); this tweet.

Maybe its because i'm British but I don't understand a word of this. I am also WTF?ing

Looks like there was some trouble with the Republican primary in a county in Nevada, some state employees were sent to help, and the office was flooded with Ron Paul supporters in the wee hours of the morning, many of whom were apparently campaign attorneys. So in other words, business as usual for the GOP.
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Deadmeat1471

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4706 on: February 05, 2012, 01:51:14 pm »



New WTF (that I was going to post in the election thread); this tweet.

Maybe its because i'm British but I don't understand a word of this. I am also WTF?ing

Looks like there was some trouble with the Republican primary in a county in Nevada, some state employees were sent to help, and the office was flooded with Ron Paul supporters in the wee hours of the morning, many of whom were apparently campaign attorneys. So in other words, business as usual for the GOP.

Ron Paul still has supporters?  :P
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palsch

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4707 on: February 05, 2012, 02:06:24 pm »

Looks like there was some trouble with the Republican primary in a county in Nevada...
This is an understatement. The technical term is, I believe, clusterfuck.

The problem is Clark county. It contains 1075 of Nevada's 1800 districts. They then included one caucus that started much later than all the others to accommodate observant Jewish voters (which just happened to be held in a school that just happens to be named after one of those Orthodox Jews, who just happens to be the guy who just happens to have donated $10 million dollars to a PAC that just happens to be supporting a candidate who just happens to be called Newt Gingrich - that particular mess is best documented here and here) while it seems few of the others started or ended on time anyway. They then decided not to trust the vote counters at each caucus site, so insisted on a hand count with two people checking each ballot as well as checking against lists of attendees. Turns out this might have been sensible seeing as the two don't match.

Right now you could get good odds on a Superbowl result before a Nevada caucus result.

That tweet is talking about at least two events I've not heard yet. The first is state employees being involved in what is meant to be a purely party run caucus. I'm not even sure that's allowed. The second is Ron Paul supporters "swarming" some office, which may have lead to election attorneys being involved. I'd note that lawyers being involved is pretty much expected here anyway (and there were reports of one caucus site manager taking ballots into his house for a soda, which is time to call in the lawyers anyway) but if the Paul supporters actually managed to interfere with the count (ironic given they are the ones screaming about conspiracy and fraud) it would be a true mess. Well, a worse mess.
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Putnam

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4708 on: February 05, 2012, 05:17:08 pm »

Phantom of The Library

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #4709 on: February 05, 2012, 08:25:14 pm »

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