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[thistleknot]

...

Weightings on skills(maybe traits too?) seem far far too high. Even if someone just has skill lvl1 and average-ish relavent attribs for Observer for example, it show him as being miles better than someone with better attribs but no skill. Is it possible for an option to disable taking skill into account so we can see a dorfs potential instead of being heavily skewed by a nearly useless skill level?

Apart from that it's looking great with the new additions, although it still gets Current Job wrong a lot

I agree, but you can specify the weights.  I override the default ini to have attributes be anywhere frmo 80-95% of the total weight considering for determining the roles

I don't know if weights is the best way to go.

If I split my attributes/skills/traits to .6, .2, .2
Then the highest my attributes can bring my % to is 60%.

Skills 20%

and

Traits 20%

It would be nice if there was a way to give a higher weight to: how far an attribute is from the average.  I was trying to do this before with my convoluted formula of attribute()-mean = distance from center, but I was having a hard way of standardizing it.  After a lot of talk with Splinterz, I caved in to the weight system because I couldn't articulate how to implement what I'm thinking.  To be honest, I don't even know if what I'm thinking is possible or would pan out like I'd hope it would.  I'm guessing it would take the averaging of stdev's and means, and what-not.

My old post is at http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=66525.msg3083599#msg3083599

There's a few things I think I had off.

I don't think I would want to multiply mean * weight, but rather stdev * weight, and average those.

[Intrinsic]

It would be nice if there was a way to give a higher weight to: how far an attribute is from the average.  I was trying to do this before with my convoluted formula of attribute()-mean = distance from center, but I was having a hard way of standardizing it.  After a lot of talk with Splinterz, I caved in to the weight system because I couldn't articulate how to implement what I'm thinking.  To be honest, I don't even know if what I'm thinking is possible or would pan out like I'd hope it would.  I'm guessing it would take the averaging of stdev's and means, and what-not.

My old post is at http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=66525.msg3083599#msg3083599

There's a few things I think I had off.

I don't think I would want to multiply mean * weight, but rather stdev * weight, and average those.

Is this what DGC does? i notice at the top is this list:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

var defaultDwarf = {
   attributes: {
      "strength": 1250,
      "musicality": 1000,
      "agility": 900,
      "empathy": 1000,
      "toughness": 1250,
      "social awareness": 1000,
      "endurance": 1000,
      "disease resistance": 1000,
      "recuperation": 1000,
      "analytical ability": 1250,
      "memory": 1250,
      "creatvity": 1250,
      "intuition": 1000,
      "focus": 1500,
      "willpower": 1000,
      "patience": 1250,
      "spatial sense": 1500,
      "kinaesthetic sense": 1000,
      "linguistic ability": 1000
   },
   traits: {
      "emotionality": 50,
      "excitement seeking": 50,
      "friendliness": 50,
      "gregariousness": 50,
      "achievement striving": 50,
      "imagination": 50,
      "activity level": 50,
      "immoderation": 55,
      "adventurousness": 50,
      "intellectual curiosity": 50,
      "artistic interest": 50,
      "self-consciousness": 50,
      "assertiveness": 50,
      "self-discipline": 50,
      "cheerfulness": 50,
      "straightforwardness": 55,
      "cooperation": 50,
      "sympathy": 50,
      "depression": 50,
      "trust": 50,
      "dutifulness": 50,
      "vulnerability": 45,
      "altruism": 50,
      "liberalism": 50,
      "anger": 50,
      "modesty": 50,
      "anxiety": 50,
      "orderliness": 50,
      "cautiousness": 50,
      "self-efficacy": 50

Which i think it uses as a baseline.


I notice currently some entries like this:
35/name="Craftsdwarf"
35/attributes="0.25::agility:0.25,endurance:0.25,creativity:1.0,spatial sense:0.5,kinesthetic sense:0.5"

How were those splits determined as i see nothing on the wiki about them?

[schismatise]

Yes for things like military teacher/student etc can have a pretty large impact, and by right environment do you mean danger rooms and 2 man squads? ;p i'm not sure those should really count as they are exploiting a weakness in the system.

Danger rooms, no 2 man squads though, sure, that is a valid tactic, just as embarking with a level 5 teacher and six level 5 students is a valid tactic, or cage traps and goblin pitting is a valid tactic. For the record, i usually increase my squad size to 3 with the first or second migrant wave. I have used many other methods in the past though, and have always noticed military attributes to max out well before skill levels reach legendary. As i mentioned earlier, however, i do not know exactly how accurately this extends to other skills and their relevant attributes.

And yes context would certainly be a factor but in my mind tools like this in DT/DGC should be there to show potential, and then leave the user to workout how best they want to use the dorf if they have or don't have certain skills. Ie for a military guy i wouldn't want all my teachers in 1 squad, i'd want to spread them around.

This is a good point. As long as the framework is there, maybe it's best to just let the user decide what weights they want to use, and simply default them all to 1.0 or something?

Edits: for clarity.

[splinterz]

Is this what DGC does? i notice at the top is this list:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

var defaultDwarf = {
   attributes: {
      "strength": 1250,
      "musicality": 1000,
      "agility": 900,
      "empathy": 1000,
      "toughness": 1250,
      "social awareness": 1000,
      "endurance": 1000,
      "disease resistance": 1000,
      "recuperation": 1000,
      "analytical ability": 1250,
      "memory": 1250,
      "creatvity": 1250,
      "intuition": 1000,
      "focus": 1500,
      "willpower": 1000,
      "patience": 1250,
      "spatial sense": 1500,
      "kinaesthetic sense": 1000,
      "linguistic ability": 1000
   },
   traits: {
      "emotionality": 50,
      "excitement seeking": 50,
      "friendliness": 50,
      "gregariousness": 50,
      "achievement striving": 50,
      "imagination": 50,
      "activity level": 50,
      "immoderation": 55,
      "adventurousness": 50,
      "intellectual curiosity": 50,
      "artistic interest": 50,
      "self-consciousness": 50,
      "assertiveness": 50,
      "self-discipline": 50,
      "cheerfulness": 50,
      "straightforwardness": 55,
      "cooperation": 50,
      "sympathy": 50,
      "depression": 50,
      "trust": 50,
      "dutifulness": 50,
      "vulnerability": 45,
      "altruism": 50,
      "liberalism": 50,
      "anger": 50,
      "modesty": 50,
      "anxiety": 50,
      "orderliness": 50,
      "cautiousness": 50,
      "self-efficacy": 50

Which i think it uses as a baseline.


I notice currently some entries like this:
35/name="Craftsdwarf"
35/attributes="0.25::agility:0.25,endurance:0.25,creativity:1.0,spatial sense:0.5,kinesthetic sense:0.5"

How were those splits determined as i see nothing on the wiki about them?

DGC does things pretty different from how i'm doing them, those are all median values as far as i know. i use current population means. in regards to the craftsdwarf i just made up that role and the weights based on the wiki. i figured more emphasis on creativity than agility was reasonable. there are no weights on the wiki, it just lists what attributes affect what roles.

[Intrinsic]

Yeah creativity is interesting, i would imagine for someone churning out rock crafts maybe it'd make more figurines, or maybe just when they do make a figurine it'd have a more lavish description, the same with engraving. The splits just got me thinking when i was about to add in Gem Cutter/Setter. For Gem Setting to get those really funky long descriptions maybe a lot more agility is needed and not just creativity, it's pretty fiddly work. I do wonder if there are more emphasis given to certain attribs in the game but i guess we'll never know unless someone can be bothered to stick DF through a disassembler

[splinterz]

Yeah creativity is interesting, i would imagine for someone churning out rock crafts maybe it'd make more figurines, or maybe just when they do make a figurine it'd have a more lavish description, the same with engraving. The splits just got me thinking when i was about to add in Gem Cutter/Setter. For Gem Setting to get those really funky long descriptions maybe a lot more agility is needed and not just creativity, it's pretty fiddly work. I do wonder if there are more emphasis given to certain attribs in the game but i guess we'll never know unless someone can be bothered to stick DF through a disassembler

well i've got some progress on this whole weight thing anyway. i've got it setup so that you can put in 3 default weights for skills, attributes and traits in the options. so if you don't specify any weights at all in a role, each individual item is weighed at 1.0, and the group is weighted with the default value.

additionally now dt will look in the dwarf therapist.ini file rather than the game_data.ini for custom roles so you don't have to mess with them when updating. furthermore, if you name a custom role the same as a default role (in the game_data.ini), it will override the default. this way you can keep the built in roles view, but still have the ability to tweak the columns.

so now i'm going to remove all the skill/attribute/trait group weights (not the individual weights) from the packaged roles so they'll use the defaults by.. well, default. sound reasonable?

[Intrinsic]

Yeah sounds like a plan batman.

And i noticed one thing when trying to add Gem Cutter.
It seems that regardless of what you set "size=" to in [dwarf_roles] it won't display extra roles.

ie i added:
37/name="Gem Cutter"
37/attributes="0.90::agility, analytical ability, spatial sense, kinesthetic sense"
37/traits=""
37/skills="0.10::30"

I even tried deleting the Dwarf Therapist.ini but no joy, it still seemed fixed at 36 columns?
Plus i swapped 36 and 37 over (ie 36 now was Gem Cutter and 37 was Lawdwarf) and it didn't change the roles tab either, so i guess that is also hard coded?
I can add it in a custom grid view though fine. /shrug

[splinterz]

Yeah sounds like a plan batman.

And i noticed one thing when trying to add Gem Cutter.
It seems that regardless of what you set "size=" to in [dwarf_roles] it won't display extra roles.

ie i added:
37/name="Gem Cutter"
37/attributes="0.90::agility, analytical ability, spatial sense, kinesthetic sense"
37/traits=""
37/skills="0.10::30"

I even tried deleting the Dwarf Therapist.ini but no joy, it still seemed fixed at 36 columns?
Plus i swapped 36 and 37 over (ie 36 now was Gem Cutter and 37 was Lawdwarf) and it didn't change the roles tab either, so i guess that is also hard coded?
I can add it in a custom grid view though fine. /shrug

yeah the default views have the columns read internally. i'm hoping we'll be able to get a good set of default roles though so that main view is setup nicely. i should probably add colors and divide them up by military/crafting/administration, etc.. thoughts?

[Intrinsic]

Sounds like a good idea, i've just been adding things as i go along as i need them:

Code: [Select]

37/name="Gem Cutter"
# AAaSsKs
37/attributes="0.90::agility, analytical ability, spatial sense, kinesthetic sense"
37/traits=""
37/skills="0.10::30"

38/name="Gem Setter"
# ACSsKs
38/attributes="0.90::agility, creativity, spatial sense, kinesthetic sense"
38/traits=""
38/skills="0.10::31"

39/name="Fisherdwarf"
# SAFPKs
39/attributes="0.90::strength, agility, focus, patience, kinesthetic sense"
39/traits=""
39/skills="0.10::24"

40/name="Wood cutter"
40/attributes="0.90::strength, agility, endurance, willpower, spatial sense, kinesthetic sense"
40/traits=""
40/skills="0.10::1"
Here is an update for [dwarf_jobs]
I know there are several more just haven't noticed them yet to add them. And obviously "Bring Crutch" would have moved to another ID so we just need to keep an eye out for that. # indicates previous values as a reminder.

Code: [Select]

211/name = "Tan a Hide"
#211/name = "Bring Crutch"
#211/type = MEDICAL
One thought on weights for things like craftdwarfs is that it just needs to be balanced so that if you get a dwarf in with 7 or 8(rough value, 6 could even be fine) already then as attribs don't effect the quality of an item the skill weight should take over as it's already at a decent level. For things like military though attribs/traits certainly do count.

[thistleknot]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...

Weightings on skills(maybe traits too?) seem far far too high. Even if someone just has skill lvl1 and average-ish relavent attribs for Observer for example, it show him as being miles better than someone with better attribs but no skill. Is it possible for an option to disable taking skill into account so we can see a dorfs potential instead of being heavily skewed by a nearly useless skill level?

Apart from that it's looking great with the new additions, although it still gets Current Job wrong a lot

I agree, but you can specify the weights.  I override the default ini to have attributes be anywhere frmo 80-95% of the total weight considering for determining the roles

I don't know if weights is the best way to go.

If I split my attributes/skills/traits to .6, .2, .2
Then the highest my attributes can bring my % to is 60%.

Skills 20%

and

Traits 20%

It would be nice if there was a way to give a higher weight to: how far an attribute is from the average.  I was trying to do this before with my convoluted formula of attribute()-mean = distance from center, but I was having a hard way of standardizing it.  After a lot of talk with Splinterz, I caved in to the weight system because I couldn't articulate how to implement what I'm thinking.  To be honest, I don't even know if what I'm thinking is possible or would pan out like I'd hope it would.  I'm guessing it would take the averaging of stdev's and means, and what-not.

My old post is at http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=66525.msg3083599#msg3083599

There's a few things I think I had off.

I don't think I would want to multiply mean * weight, but rather stdev * weight, and average those.

nevermind... .6 .2 .2, then if the .2 attributes were 0, then the .6 highest could be 60%.  Oops

[thistleknot]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sounds like a good idea, i've just been adding things as i go along as i need them:

Code: [Select]

37/name="Gem Cutter"
# AAaSsKs
37/attributes="0.90::agility, analytical ability, spatial sense, kinesthetic sense"
37/traits=""
37/skills="0.10::30"

38/name="Gem Setter"
# ACSsKs
38/attributes="0.90::agility, creativity, spatial sense, kinesthetic sense"
38/traits=""
38/skills="0.10::31"

39/name="Fisherdwarf"
# SAFPKs
39/attributes="0.90::strength, agility, focus, patience, kinesthetic sense"
39/traits=""
39/skills="0.10::24"
Here is an update for [dwarf_jobs]
I know there are several more just haven't noticed them yet to add them. And obviously "Bring Crutch" would have moved to another ID so we just need to keep an eye out for that. # indicates previous values as a reminder.

Code: [Select]

211/name = "Tan a Hide"
#211/name = "Bring Crutch"
#211/type = MEDICAL
One thought on weights for things like craftdwarfs is that it just needs to be balanced so that if you get a dwarf in with 7 or 8(rough value, 6 could even be fine) already then as attribs don't effect the quality of an item the skill weight should take over as it's already at a decent level. For things like military though attribs/traits certainly do count.

can you add a woodcutter as well Splinterz?

[Intrinsic]

can you add a woodcutter as well Splinterz?

Code: [Select]

40/name="Wood cutter"
40/attributes="0.90::strength, agility, endurance, willpower, spatial sense, kinesthetic sense"
40/traits=""
40/skills="0.10::1"

[vityav]

Just in case anybody else runs into this problem (or this is worth fixing outside of a few specific cases): when compiling splinterz's code on gcc4.1 and up (apparently when it started being an issue), if it throws a:

Code: [Select]

In file included from src/gridviewdialog.cpp:38:0:
inc/grid_view/rolecolumn.h:44:10: error: extra qualification ‘RoleColumn::’ on member ‘write_to_ini’ [-fpermissive]
Edit <codebase>/inc/grid_view/rolecolumn.h to change

Code: [Select]

RoleColumn::write_to_ini to just

Code: [Select]

write_to_ini and compile from there.

[splinterz]

yeah i'll add those roles. i'll probably leave out the group weights though, as now that it's set in the defaults it'll be redundant for each role. i'll also try and go through the enum for jobs and fix them up as well this weekend if i've got the time.

good catch on the write_to_ini vityav, thanks.

[thistleknot]

Wait, don't get rid of individual group weights!  Users may wish to set those up for specific reasons.  I think if a role group weight is specified, it overrides the default group weights.

Btw, I made this formula, what do you think

instance = absolute averaged factored deviation:

diff = difference from mean
^{not a power, but instance attribute}

(
(factor¹*diff¹)+(factor²*diff²)+(factor^...*diff^...)
)
/# of items
= instance

average(all stdev*weights) = factoredstdevp
  I verified this factoredstdevp is factual IF all sample sizes are the same

normalcdf(instance, 0,factoredstdevp)

I'm not sure if it does what I want, but I think it factors deviations from the center more accurately.  I did a few examples.

I mentioned earlier that a .6 .2 .2 weight setup means that if the .2 attributes are 0, then the highest % is .6.

With this formula, that limit seems to not be an issue.  A 2500 (endurance), 0 (analytical), 0 (memory) attribute would give a 60% normally, but a 80.92 with my formula