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[Goncyn]

In the version of Therapist packaged with Masterwork 1.5.1+, I can't load all migrants into Therapist as soon as the game pauses with the "Some migrants have arrived" message. They only appear in Therapist after they have moved onto the game screen. I've never had this problem before. It's very useful to be able to see all your migrants as soon as the game pauses so you can easily modify their labors immediately instead of watching the screen until no more have come for a while.

I believe Meph is using splinterz's patched version as of 1.5.1, so maybe it's a consequence of his changes? Anyone else notice this?

[uggi]

Is 0.6.12 supposed to be 0.31.25 compatible? I've got a bunch of old 0.31.25 fortresses, and in all of them the professions are showing up really weird in 0.6.12. Some hammerdwarves show up as speardwarves, some adult dwarves as children. It's quite random, except children seem to always show up as master lashers and babies as recruits. Therapist also lists children and babies with bold text, like they were drafted into militia and in active duty. Also some dwarves are missing completely. Everything seems correct in 0.6.11. I've tried this in 32 bit Linux and in 64 bit Win 7, both have the same problem.

[vorpal+5]

No problem at all on my side, works flawlessly with latest DF (and Legend mod).

I appreciate to see the stats of the dwarves also, great job!

[Intrinsic]

Is 0.6.12 supposed to be 0.31.25 compatible? I've got a bunch of old 0.31.25 fortresses, and in all of them the professions are showing up really weird in 0.6.12. Some hammerdwarves show up as speardwarves, some adult dwarves as children. It's quite random, except children seem to always show up as master lashers and babies as recruits. Therapist also lists children and babies with bold text, like they were drafted into militia and in active duty. Also some dwarves are missing completely. Everything seems correct in 0.6.11. I've tried this in 32 bit Linux and in 64 bit Win 7, both have the same problem.

Nope it doesn't really work with 31.25, 6.10 is your only hope.

[splinterz]

the 7.0 update looks nice, though for modders there is still one oddity:
my drow use different stat weighting, so my very strong, very agile and virtually never sick drow shows in dftherapist as strong without marker, but extremly agile and flimsy (though virtually never sick with 4900 is awesome either way oO)
now is the question if there is some way to read those values, or a simple tool so i can adjust and save the properties.

edit: also i noticed that spatial sense is not in, this is also a very important military attribute, because it affects block and even more so dodging a lot (someone with amazing spatial sense and average dodgeing is insanely hard to hit compared to an agile one

i've looked into this briefly after the last time you mentioned it, and while i think the most elegant solution would be to read the ranges from the raws, it would be nice to have it consistent with regular df as well. unfortunately, to my knowledge, the ranges in the game and the ranges specified in the raws are not the same. i'll have to add an override in the game_data.ini.

spatial sense is an aspect of the default combat roles, i'm not sure why you're not seeing it.

also a heads-up on the custom roles. i'm going to change the syntax/formatting to be more consistent with the other game_data.ini elements.

here's a comparison of a custom role:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

old
1/name="Chief Medical"
1/attributes="0.25::analytical ability:0.9, memory:0.8, intuition"
1/skills="0.75::60:0.6"
1/traits="1.25::20:0.5, 23"

new
1/name="Chief Medical"
1/attributes_weight=0.25
1/attributes/size=3
1/attributes/1/id="analytical ability"
1/attributes/1/weight=0.9
1/attributes/2/id="memory"
1/attributes/2/weight=0.8
1/attributes/3/id="intuition"
1/skills_weight=0.75
1/skills/size=1
1/skills/1/id=60
1/skills/1/weight=0.6
1/traits_weight=1.25
1/traits/size = 2
1/traits/1/id=20
1/traits/1/weight=0.5
1/traits/2/id=23

as you can see it won't be as compact, but it will be more forgiving of typos and it's easier to understand the layout for players adding custom roles.

[Intrinsic]

...

Weightings on skills(maybe traits too?) seem far far too high. Even if someone just has skill lvl1 and average-ish relavent attribs for Observer for example, it show him as being miles better than someone with better attribs but no skill. Is it possible for an option to disable taking skill into account so we can see a dorfs potential instead of being heavily skewed by a nearly useless skill level?

Apart from that it's looking great with the new additions, although it still gets Current Job wrong a lot

[splinterz]

...

Weightings on skills(traits too prolly) seem far far too high. Even if someone just has skill lvl1 and average-ish relavent attribs for Observer for example, it show him as being miles better than someone with better attribs but no skill. Is it possible for an option to disable taking skill into account so we can see a dorfs potential instead of being heavily skewed by a nearly useless skill level?

Apart from that it's looking great with the new additions, although it still gets Current Job wrong a lot

the problem with skills is that most dwarves don't have most skills, so it ends up that even level 1 in a skill is actually way better than the average. a greater benefit to the project would be if you propose some weights so i can tweak the default roles' weighting. you can also just edit the game_data.ini and remove skills from the roles.

however this is still a work in progress, and while editing game_data.ini works, i still need to put in more work for custom roles because the game_data.ini is more for default settings.

[schismatise]

Love your work, splinterz.

Weightings on skills(maybe traits too?) seem far far too high. Even if someone just has skill lvl1 and average-ish relavent attribs for Observer for example, it show him as being miles better than someone with better attribs but no skill.

In terms of long-term military dwarf potential, i would probably argue that this is true. Military attributes barely take a year to get to a good place, while certain skills, like Observer for example, might take alot longer, so in the long run the dwarf with the level 1 observer skill is a better choice.

That's the tricky part though. The weightings depend on the context. The more long-term you're looking at, the less important current ability levels are and the more important potential ability levels are. While i'm sure it would be possible to split every single custom role into long or short term consideration, or even further divisions, it's probably outside the scope of the project (i honestly think splinterz has already gone overboard but i'm not complaining )

[Intrinsic]

From what AnnanFay said for DGC they just pulled the data off the wiki and from various !!SCIENCE!! projects. As to what weights are best i'm not a maths guy so not sure, the only reason i brought it up was because it was only on my last 31.25 fort that i tried DGC and tested it on assigning an additional new crafts dwarf of some kind. The dorf i chose using DGC; his skill level blitzed past my existing dorf who was already around level 4 but rated about 30% less.
If you wanted to keep skill as a weight, then maybe swap the weights, ie .25 for skills and .75 for attribs as they seem a greater factor from my limited experience.

One additional note, i wish it'd remember the sort order of the dorfs as i move between tabs

[schismatise]

As to what weights are best i'm not a maths guy so not sure, the only reason i brought it up was because it was only on my last 31.25 fort that i tried DGC and tested it on assigning an additional new crafts dwarf of some kind. The dorf i chose using DGC; his skill level blitzed past my existing dorf who was already around level 4 but rated about 30% less.
If you wanted to keep skill as a weight, then maybe swap the weights, ie .25 for skills and .75 for attribs as they seem a greater factor from my limited experience.

It may very well be that weights will need to consider context, if your experience of attributes giving such a large bonus to skill gains (in this case craft skills) is a common one. From memory, Toady once pointed out that while having a massive amount of creativity vs none whatsoever will make little to no difference between 2 legendary carpenters, it has a significantly larger impact at lower skill levels, in terms of produce quality (i am not so sure on the effects of the speed at which the skill raises though - i would guess that this would be impacted more by traits such as 'very active' or 'strong willpower').

However, i know from extensive experience that this is not the case when it comes to military - attributes level up rapidly regardless of their starting level (in the right training environment), and while their impact on combat is somewhat significant, having even 1 extra level in teacher is a huge bonus in the long run - one that i would take over any amount of attribute advantage.

[splinterz]

Love your work, splinterz.

Weightings on skills(maybe traits too?) seem far far too high. Even if someone just has skill lvl1 and average-ish relavent attribs for Observer for example, it show him as being miles better than someone with better attribs but no skill.

In terms of long-term military dwarf potential, i would probably argue that this is true. Military attributes barely take a year to get to a good place, while certain skills, like Observer for example, might take alot longer, so in the long run the dwarf with the level 1 observer skill is a better choice.

That's the tricky part though. The weightings depend on the context. The more long-term you're looking at, the less important current ability levels are and the more important potential ability levels are. While i'm sure it would be possible to split every single custom role into long or short term consideration, or even further divisions, it's probably outside the scope of the project (i honestly think splinterz has already gone overboard but i'm not complaining )

thanks   i'm trying to find the best solution for different scenarios which should address the concerns brought up:

• overriding default roles
• custom user-defined roles
• setting global override weights for skills, attributes and traits (rather than having to copy all the defaults and customize them for example)

From what AnnanFay said for DGC they just pulled the data off the wiki and from various !!SCIENCE!! projects. As to what weights are best i'm not a maths guy so not sure, the only reason i brought it up was because it was only on my last 31.25 fort that i tried DGC and tested it on assigning an additional new crafts dwarf of some kind. The dorf i chose using DGC; his skill level blitzed past my existing dorf who was already around level 4 but rated about 30% less.
If you wanted to keep skill as a weight, then maybe swap the weights, ie .25 for skills and .75 for attribs as they seem a greater factor from my limited experience.

One additional note, i wish it'd remember the sort order of the dorfs as i move between tabs

yeah i like having the traits weighed the most, as they can't change and there's only a few roles that it's important to factor them in. using the same logic then the next in line would be the slowest level time between skills and attributes, assuming more time to level = more valuable. or is it better to look at it from the effect on the role? for example is it better to have a dwarf with strong attributes, and weak skills, or the opposite as a fighter?

i'm leaning towards skills being more valuable than attributes for the reasons schismatise explained above.

[Intrinsic]

Yes for things like military teacher/student etc can have a pretty large impact, and by right environment do you mean danger rooms and 2 man squads? ;p i'm not sure those should really count as they are exploiting a weakness in the system. And yes context would certainly be a factor but in my mind tools like this in DT/DGC should be there to show potential, and then leave the user to workout how best they want to use the dorf if they have or don't have certain skills. Ie for a military guy i wouldn't want all my teachers in 1 squad, i'd want to spread them around.
As it stands if someone has say 1 in swords, with the current weights it's like saying, this guy swung a sword once so he must be the greatest. And traits, 1.25 for them, and .25 for attribs, wow. Maybe traits could be set as a very low weight, just so someone can see when they hover over a dorf that is has a relevant trait for that profession, the same with skills even.

I tried adjusting some weights and it gave the desired effect. Maybe it could be a menu option even, to say apply a weight to each catagory.

PS: [dwarf_jobs] i guess we are waiting for several builds before updating this? or should people submit updates right now?

[splinterz]

Yes for things like military teacher/student etc can have a pretty large impact, and by right environment do you mean danger rooms and 2 man squads? ;p i'm not sure those should really count as they are exploiting a weakness in the system. And yes context would certainly be a factor but in my mind tools like this in DT/DGC should be there to show potential, and then leave the user to workout how best they want to use the dorf if they have or don't have certain skills. Ie for a military guy i wouldn't want all my teachers in 1 squad, i'd want to spread them around.
As it stands if someone has say 1 in swords, with the current weights it's like saying, this guy swung a sword once so he must be the greatest. And traits, 1.25 for them, and .25 for attribs, wow. Maybe traits could be set as a very low weight, just so someone can see when they hover over a dorf that is has a relevant trait for that profession, the same with skills even.

I tried adjusting some weights and it gave the desired effect. Maybe it could be a menu option even, to say apply a weight to each catagory.

PS: [dwarf_jobs] i guess we are waiting for several builds before updating this? or should people submit updates right now?

haha i think you're exaggerating your claims a bit, but that's fine. i do think that traits are weighted too heavily at the moment, because if a role has a trait, those dwarves will be at the top, guaranteed, and it's difficult to overcome them with the other aspects. as per my other post, i'll be setting up a way to specify global weights (may just be in the ini though, no GUI)

sorry, i'm not following what you're talking about with submitting dwarf jobs?

[Intrinsic]

Yes for things like military teacher/student etc can have a pretty large impact, and by right environment do you mean danger rooms and 2 man squads? ;p i'm not sure those should really count as they are exploiting a weakness in the system. And yes context would certainly be a factor but in my mind tools like this in DT/DGC should be there to show potential, and then leave the user to workout how best they want to use the dorf if they have or don't have certain skills. Ie for a military guy i wouldn't want all my teachers in 1 squad, i'd want to spread them around.
As it stands if someone has say 1 in swords, with the current weights it's like saying, this guy swung a sword once so he must be the greatest. And traits, 1.25 for them, and .25 for attribs, wow. Maybe traits could be set as a very low weight, just so someone can see when they hover over a dorf that is has a relevant trait for that profession, the same with skills even.

I tried adjusting some weights and it gave the desired effect. Maybe it could be a menu option even, to say apply a weight to each catagory.

PS: [dwarf_jobs] i guess we are waiting for several builds before updating this? or should people submit updates right now?

haha i think you're exaggerating your claims a bit, but that's fine. i do think that traits are weighted too heavily at the moment, because if a role has a trait, those dwarves will be at the top, guaranteed, and it's difficult to overcome them with the other aspects. as per my other post, i'll be setting up a way to specify global weights (may just be in the ini though, no GUI)

sorry, i'm not following what you're talking about with submitting dwarf jobs?

Heh yeah a slight over exageration ;p but a dorf with level 1 in a skill attributed to a profession will be ranked above a guy who has much better attribs.

In DT atm the current job column is incorrect some of the time, what is displayed there is dictated by the [dwarf_jobs] section in the ini. And i guess the job IDs have changed a fair bit between v31 and v34. For example:

DT shows Bridge Crutch for job ID 211.
211/name = "Bring Crutch"

But infact ingame it's Tan a Hide.

[splinterz]

by all means, keep those job names coming and i'll update them! i didn't even realize that they were messed up