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[marchewa]

you guys are right. especially this:

It requires two different levels of required player skill at the same time. I'd say that's impossible. A game can't be both hard and easy.

Edit: Three, even.

we all know that in mathematics there is only one possible (y) for each (x). i think it's just meant to be funny...

But seriously about learning curve, i always thought x is the amount of time, and y is "how good you understand the game". then: for DF the graph would rise very slowly, and for let's just say simcity it would be very steep, because you get to understand sim city much faster. also for simcity at the end it would be very high, and for DF would be lower - i can imagine it is more common to understand simcity in 100% than to understand DF in even 95%

[Kogan Loloklam]

Which part of:

I draw it today, but the idea is not mine.

is not clear for you?

The part where you claim "I draw"
For it to be clear, I had to be certain that what it really classified wasn't "I directly copied this from something"
Since the similarities are so close (instead of, you know, like a unique idea) you have to be ready for people to check to be sure that the only thing you plagiarized was the concept. People who draw themselves might decide rather than copying the spears below the people climbing the cliff, they will put a boiling lake of magma with an angry elephant next to it or something. There was nothing dwarf fortressy about it that wasn't in it's original form. If not for the different direction that some heads were pointing in, I wouldn't have even looked at enough for that, and would have called it a direct rip with just a few new colored lines and different text, which is pretty pathetic for something that is basically a bunch of stick figures.

Does this satisfactorily answer your question?

[Cotes]

you guys are right. especially this:

It requires two different levels of required player skill at the same time. I'd say that's impossible. A game can't be both hard and easy.

Edit: Three, even.

we all know that in mathematics there is only one possible (y) for each (x). i think it's just meant to be funny...

x = (y)²

[Jay]

only one possible (y) for each (x)

Only in functions.
There are plenty of ways to get multiple y-values on a single x-value.

[Kilo24]

Civ 4 is piss easy, and Europa Universalis is a pushover as well.

Why aren't there any really challenging games out there anymore?

There are.  Usually they're roguelikes or Atlus-published. 

Or La Mulana.

[qwert]

I think I've seen this before...

... only it was some other game, right? 

EVE Online.

Considering I've been playing eve since '06 and I don't remember anyone calling it the second genesis ever...

[thijser]

only one possible (y) for each (x)

Only in functions.
There are plenty of ways to get multiple y-values on a single x-value.

I can't remember how to but we once learned a formule that would give us a circle on our calculator (trough some time ago and more to get us interested into math)

[Draco18s]

only one possible (y) for each (x)

Only in functions.
There are plenty of ways to get multiple y-values on a single x-value.

I can't remember how to but we once learned a formule that would give us a circle on our calculator (trough some time ago and more to get us interested into math)

 y = sqrt(r2 - x*x)

[Retro]

The "Eve: The Second Genesis" image is the original AFAIK.

Edit 1: Here's the picture dated from 2009ish, but without the current color codes.
http://www.freeallegiance.org/FAW/index.php/Complex_learning_curve
It existed in 2008 but with quake instead of Dwarf fortress.

Hehehe, whoever created that version of it has no idea what he's talking about, and probably picked the other games arbitrarily. Left 4 Dead harder than Dwarf Fortress? Hah.

[monk12]

You people fail at learning curves.  It's not "time and skill" (because more time will always give you more skill) it's "effort and understanding."

http://www.casualgamedesign.com/?p=27

I would have pointed that out, as well, but I think the whole "time goes backwards and has people impaled on spikes on it" thing kind of destroyed the whole notion that it was trying to make a credible argument.

There's nothing wrong with the cliff and spikes,* provided that you name your axis properly.

*Except from being ripped from a difficulty graph about EVE.

Come on guys, DF is Fun and all but Math is SERIOUS BUSINESS!

Also, if I am not very mistaken I believe the original was about Eve and was by xkcd. Hit meme status fairly quickly with the "sub in your elitist game" crowd.



EDIT: Thanks for the link to the game design website, btw

[rdwulfe]

I'm 100% sure the original of this is about Eve. Had to say, I was almost offended when I saw it ripped for DF and other games, even though of all the games out there, DF *may* be the closest to match... However, in Eve, there really is a guy at the top with  bulldozer, waiting to run your ass over. Repeatedly.

[hailthefish]

The version with Allegiance is pretty fair, too. DF might be hard to learn and complicated, but at least nobody's swearing at you in all caps while you play because OMFG U F**IN NOOB I TOLD U TO NAN THE BOMBER WTF ARE YOU DOING GETTING EYED ARHGFHGHGH!

[de5me7]

The amazing thing is according to the graph, once your gaming skill improves to a certain point you actually travel backwards in time!

correct, df does bend and warp time through its sheer complexity

[GTM]

The part where the learning curve starts curving back the way it came is when you get that first BIG migrant wave or first goblin ambush and realize that even though you thought you were doing great, you were actually doing it all wrong...

[Heavenfall]

You people fail at learning curves.  It's not "time and skill" (because more time will always give you more skill) it's "effort and understanding."

http://www.casualgamedesign.com/?p=27

That describes something different. The original graph in this learning curve describes the required skill necessary to progress past a certain point in time. Or, in other words, how difficult the game is after having played a set amount of time. The effort put forth by the player is not a variable in this, just as time isn't a variable in your link. Arguably, the curves are connected, because they're describing roughly the same thing. But they are still different, and they describe different relationships.