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All dwarves have beards

133 (41.7%)

Males bearded; females beardless (default setting)

163 (51.1%)

Females bearded; males beardless

14 (4.4%)

All dwarves beardless (horrors!)

9 (2.8%)

Total Members Voted: 319

[NW_Kohaku]

having read Discworld at a young age, I have enough reason to support beards

Honestly, this (and the equivalent "I think there was something Tolkien did once that supports it") seems to be the only major argument root of all arguments for bearded women - that some author said it once as part of a joke, and now, DF dwarves have to be like the dwarves in whatever other fantasy series you liked as a kid...

[Stove]

What was Tolkien's stance on ladybeards?

Tolkien was quite clear that female Dwarves had beards:

Tolkien answered this question explicitly in other texts. In The War of the Jewels ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain", written ~1951), Tolkien wrote that

no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike...

In The Peoples of Middle-earth, Christopher Tolkien says that a similar statement was present in an earlier draft of Appendix A as well. As these statements are entirely in agreement with the canonical evidence cited above, the conclusion that Dwarf women had beards seems inescapable.

(source: http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html)

While the beard is regarded as a symbol of dwarfdom, here is my argument against it being such.
DF is, first and foremost, a work-in-progress reality simulator. It can be also used as a game, but a perfect simulation of creation is clearly it's primary purpose. In real life, female humanoids, for the most part, lack the ability to grow a good beard. They do, in some cases, have facial hair, but not of dwarfy length. So, I put it to you that realistically (Unless dwarves have a different balance of hormones and such to us, which Toady has yet to specify) female dwarves would also be mostly incapable of beardiness.
As such, to say the beard is an important part of a dwarf would be to intentionally segregate men from women in terms of status. Alcoholism, justified. Depth-delving, justified. Why? Because both men and women can stake a claim to such symbols of dwarfiness. Dwarven women can be just as awesome, just as ass kicking and just as insane as men. Do not look upon them as less for their bare chins.

Of course, this is all just speculation assuming that by real-world parameters, dwarven women cannot in fact grow beards.

You're arbitrarily assuming that dwarves have a similar degree of sexual dimorphism to humans. They're a fantasy race. Why would you do this? It's silly. And besides, there have been women who have grown relatively dwarven beards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Jones_(bearded_woman)

We can resolve this by using a bit of armchair evolutionary biology.

This can be fun, but ultimately, relying on scientific rigour to determine something that is purely fantasy is folly. I would prefer to take a more philological and philosophical route.


The classic image of a dwarf is that of a short old man with a long beard. This association is so strong that when one considers the existence of female dwarves, the problem arises: You can't have half the Dwarven population walking around beardless. That would be like having a race of satyrs, where all the females have human legs and no horns. They can't really be called satyrs, can they?

Tolkien was the first (as far as I know) to attempt to solve this. His solution was to give female dwarves beards. As the father of modern fantasy, I'd say this is pretty important.

So, why are people resistent to this idea? It's pretty easy to analyze:

1. The idea of a female having a beard gives some people cognitive dissonance. They're squeamish about the idea because it's contrary to what they're used to, and by human heterosexual standards, it's hard to imagine a male finding it attractive.

2. In the case of many RPGs, it's for the sake of marketing. Both for appeasing the squeamish folks and for the potential of making female Dwarves "sexy" along with other races. (And, well, the people who want this are just kind of sad. And probably adolescent.)

3. The idea of female dwarves having beards seems goofy and humourous. I see nothing wrong with this, and if anything, consider it a point in favour of them having beards.


All in all, I'd say beardless female dwarves are a total cop-out, and the 'side-burn' compromise is even more of a cop-out (seriously, guys? laaaame)

I propose that, to Dwarves, the term "beardless" shall have a negative connotation, meaning foolish, effete, cowardly, or confused, depending on the context.

[Africa]

The thing about beards as mating props is that, given how division of labor and sexual dimorphism are otherwise nonexistent besides the women carrying babies around for a year, there's no reason why women wouldn't also show off via healthy beards. Now, if it were already the case that men had beards and women didn't, sexual selection could then cause the beards to become bigger and bigger for mating purposes, but I think the beards have other reasons for existing.

Also, since dwarves mate for life and never remarry, if the beard were only there to help the male get a mate, then it should fall out or at least stop growing as soon as he gets married, since there would be no more reason for it to exist.

This can be fun, but ultimately, relying on scientific rigour to determine something that is purely fantasy is folly. I would prefer to take a more philological and philosophical route.

Oh of course it's silly...but how is a philosophical route any less silly?! we're talking about dwarf beards here! Of course, I agree with you reasoning. I think you're right that most objection to female dwarf beards comes from the fact that dwarves are enough like humans that we identify with them and apply human standards to them. Since I'm interested in the ways dwarves are different (social and economic behavior for one - does the communist model of forts without the economy represent a whole different way of thinking, or is it just a function of small communities, since small human groups can often do similarly?) I like that females would have beards since it emphasizes that the dwarves are very NOT human. Again, the reasons why many media depict beardless dwarfladies are probably what you've stated.

[Thundrim]

no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike...

Guess this include babies then. Suspected it, but somehow managed to miss that actual quote. Good job on the research. It's reasonable, Aulė or Mahal, their creator had just a rudimentary picture of Elves and Humans yet to come, so gender differentiation was also colored by an incomplete picture and based more on a general mold, presumably based on the maker's own physical form. Since creation was not sanctioned, they were put to sleep of course, so the Elves could say they were first. :p

--- 

[NW_Kohaku]

The thing about beards as mating props is that, given how division of labor and sexual dimorphism are otherwise nonexistent besides the women carrying babies around for a year, there's no reason why women wouldn't also show off via healthy beards.

That's like saying there's no reason that a female peacock shouldn't be the same brilliant color as a male peacock... 

The only reason to be a brilliant color in the first place is to attract females - why would a female adapt a prop to attract other females that she isn't going to be able to mate with (OK, well, mate SUCCESSFULLY with), anyway? 

The brilliant colors also have a cost associated with generating them, nutritionally, which is one of the presumed reasons that such sexual attractors exist - that growing a brilliant set of feathers proves you are healthier than another male that cannot grow such feathers.  (Parasites also dull the feathers, so brilliant colors prove you are free of parasites.)  This can apply equally well to dwarves - if he can grow a healthy-looking beard, he must not have parasites and must be able to eat well enough that his hair isn't falling out.

Also, since dwarves mate for life and never remarry, if the beard were only there to help the male get a mate, then it should fall out or at least stop growing as soon as he gets married, since there would be no more reason for it to exist.

Which is why birds, many of which also mate for life, will never give out birdcalls again and will change their colors back after gaining a mate, right?

[DaPatman]

DF dwarves have to be like the dwarves in whatever other fantasy series you liked as a kid...

Of course they do.

[breadbocks]

What was Tolkien's stance on ladybeards?

Tolkien was quite clear that female Dwarves had beards:

Tolkien answered this question explicitly in other texts. In The War of the Jewels ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain", written ~1951), Tolkien wrote that

no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike...

In The Peoples of Middle-earth, Christopher Tolkien says that a similar statement was present in an earlier draft of Appendix A as well. As these statements are entirely in agreement with the canonical evidence cited above, the conclusion that Dwarf women had beards seems inescapable.

(source: http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html)

While the beard is regarded as a symbol of dwarfdom, here is my argument against it being such.
DF is, first and foremost, a work-in-progress reality simulator. It can be also used as a game, but a perfect simulation of creation is clearly it's primary purpose. In real life, female humanoids, for the most part, lack the ability to grow a good beard. They do, in some cases, have facial hair, but not of dwarfy length. So, I put it to you that realistically (Unless dwarves have a different balance of hormones and such to us, which Toady has yet to specify) female dwarves would also be mostly incapable of beardiness.
As such, to say the beard is an important part of a dwarf would be to intentionally segregate men from women in terms of status. Alcoholism, justified. Depth-delving, justified. Why? Because both men and women can stake a claim to such symbols of dwarfiness. Dwarven women can be just as awesome, just as ass kicking and just as insane as men. Do not look upon them as less for their bare chins.

Of course, this is all just speculation assuming that by real-world parameters, dwarven women cannot in fact grow beards.

You're arbitrarily assuming that dwarves have a similar degree of sexual dimorphism to humans. They're a fantasy race. Why would you do this? It's silly. And besides, there have been women who have grown relatively dwarven beards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Jones_(bearded_woman)

We can resolve this by using a bit of armchair evolutionary biology.

This can be fun, but ultimately, relying on scientific rigour to determine something that is purely fantasy is folly. I would prefer to take a more philological and philosophical route.


The classic image of a dwarf is that of a short old man with a long beard. This association is so strong that when one considers the existence of female dwarves, the problem arises: You can't have half the Dwarven population walking around beardless. That would be like having a race of satyrs, where all the females have human legs and no horns. They can't really be called satyrs, can they?

Tolkien was the first (as far as I know) to attempt to solve this. His solution was to give female dwarves beards. As the father of modern fantasy, I'd say this is pretty important.

So, why are people resistent to this idea? It's pretty easy to analyze:

1. The idea of a female having a beard gives some people cognitive dissonance. They're squeamish about the idea because it's contrary to what they're used to, and by human heterosexual standards, it's hard to imagine a male finding it attractive.

2. In the case of many RPGs, it's for the sake of marketing. Both for appeasing the squeamish folks and for the potential of making female Dwarves "sexy" along with other races. (And, well, the people who want this are just kind of sad. And probably adolescent.)

3. The idea of female dwarves having beards seems goofy and humourous. I see nothing wrong with this, and if anything, consider it a point in favour of them having beards.


All in all, I'd say beardless female dwarves are a total cop-out, and the 'side-burn' compromise is even more of a cop-out (seriously, guys? laaaame)

I propose that, to Dwarves, the term "beardless" shall have a negative connotation, meaning foolish, effete, cowardly, or confused, depending on the context.

Dude! Do you read? Anything can sound like anything when taken out of context. The War of Jewels wasn't written by J.R.R. Tolkien. It was Christopher Tolkien. Nice try asshole.

[NW_Kohaku]

DF dwarves have to be like the dwarves in whatever other fantasy series you liked as a kid...

Of course they do.

If we have to use Tolkien as our source for everything, then why aren't we using Tolkienian Perfecter-than-thou elves?

If our dwarves must be bearded just so that they can be exactly like what Tolkien wrote about in some random scrap of paper, obviously, elves must be the total epitome of perfection, as Tolkien wrote about.  After all, that's where the "perfect" elf idea came from, and the entire "elves are haughty jackasses" idea of elves only grew as a rejection of Tolkienian elves...

As such, clearly Stove, and those who are arguing that bearded dwarven women are a plague upon dwarfkind are actually just "perfect elf" sympathizers trying to backdoor their elven propoganda upon us!  This elvishness shall not stand!

[breadbocks]

DF dwarves have to be like the dwarves in whatever other fantasy series you liked as a kid...

Of course they do.

If we have to use Tolkien as our source for everything, then why aren't we using Tolkienian Perfecter-than-thou elves?

If our dwarves must be bearded just so that they can be exactly like what Tolkien wrote about in some random scrap of paper, obviously, elves must be the total epitome of perfection, as Tolkien wrote about.  After all, that's where the "perfect" elf idea came from, and the entire "elves are haughty jackasses" idea of elves only grew as a rejection of Tolkienian elves...

As such, clearly Stove, and those who are arguing that bearded dwarven women are a plague upon dwarfkind are actually just "perfect elf" sympathizers trying to backdoor their elven propoganda upon us!  This elvishness shall not stand!

This. A million times this.

[Stove]

Dude! Do you read? Anything can sound like anything when taken out of context. The War of Jewels wasn't written by J.R.R. Tolkien. It was Christopher Tolkien. Nice try asshole.

The War of the Jewels was created from the writings of J. R. R. Tolkien. Christopher was quoting his father. This is obvious from the piece I included in my post.

If we have to use Tolkien as our source for everything, then why aren't we using Tolkienian Perfecter-than-thou elves?

Nobody's saying it should be based entirely on Tolkien. Just that Tolkien's canon is important to consider. Tolkien also said that only a third of the Dwarven population is female, and that the females rarely travelled. [edit - and as stated earlier, I appreciate DF's lack of dwarven gender roles, so obviously I don't favour this just because Tolkien said it.]

As such, clearly Stove, and those who are arguing that bearded dwarven women are a plague upon dwarfkind are actually just "perfect elf" sympathizers trying to backdoor their elven propoganda upon us!  This elvishness shall not stand!

Hey, you're the one trying to deprecate female Dwarves into beardless elf-like creatures!

[Thundrim]

@NW_Kohaku,

Your Drawing reminded me a lot of the Nordic inspired female Dwarves in Warhammer. I'm a bit stuck between the two camps, so I do like your vision as well. In this thread the Bearded Dwarf wins in that internal battle, but I'm not going to use Tolkien as an argument to kill off diversity. We still have DF in common, and that wins over this thread ultimately. Thanks for sharing. 

---   

[Stove]

By the way, based on what Toady has said, if I remember right, in the future whether Dwarven women have beards or not will likely be determined by genetics. In other words, some populations of Dwarves will have bearded women, and others will not. This is a better compromise than sideburns, though I'm not sure how easy it will be for players to end up with the option they want in their dwarven population when they start a fortress.

[Lord Shonus]

If we have to use Tolkien as our source for everything, then why aren't we using Tolkienian Perfecter-than-thou elves?

Tolkien's elves were not "perfecter-than-thou." Not even the Noldor in the Silmarillion, although they came closest. By far the most arrogant race (as a whole) in Tolkien's works is Man, and the most arrogant individuals are near-deities, (Sauron and Saruman were Maiar, and Melkor was Valar.)

[Thundrim]

By the way, based on what Toady has said, if I remember right, in the future whether Dwarven women have beards or not will likely be determined by genetics. In other words, some populations of Dwarves will have bearded women, and others will not. This is a better compromise than sideburns, though I'm not sure how easy it will be for players to end up with the option they want in their dwarven population when they start a fortress.

Genetics, that's where we truly take off from Middle Earth hehe. Well, I'm kinda hoping the process can be turned off/on then. Although that would be a poor use of an advanced future. Will curiosity win over preferences?

[NW_Kohaku]

If we have to use Tolkien as our source for everything, then why aren't we using Tolkienian Perfecter-than-thou elves?

Nobody's saying it should be based entirely on Tolkien. Just that Tolkien's canon is important to consider. Tolkien also said that only a third of the Dwarven population is female, and that the females rarely travelled.

In other words,we should listen to Tolkien on the parts you want us to listen to, but we shouldn't listen to Tolkien on the parts you don't want us to listen to...

Reminds me so, so very much of so, so many arguments over the Bible...

Tolkien's elves were not "perfecter-than-thou." Not even the Noldor in the Silmarillion, although they came closest. By far the most arrogant race (as a whole) in Tolkien's works is Man, and the most arrogant individuals are near-deities, (Sauron and Saruman were Maiar, and Melkor was Valar.)

No, they weren't arrogant, they were perfect.  As in, they had the ideal civilization and racial traits, according to Tolkien.  They were what Tolkien wished humans could be.  Even if they weren't the most arrogant about it, they were there to tell humans why they were weak and sucky and how their attempts to have a culture that changes over time was obviously only going to make the world worse.