Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Neonivek]

I hate it when people just assume I am playing a game... There is more then a Rhyme or reason to everything I am doing.

Scorpions and cats are using their natural attacks (parts of their body) so of course it is effective,they are not holding heavy blades and swinging them both

Heavy blades do not even need to be involved. Though a weapon by any legal definition is an object that enhances your own ability to cause harm (at least by Canadian definition). Thus really all a weapon is, is an enhancement so Dual weapon programming would also stem from multiple natural attacks. Which come to think of it does leave in a function for "kicks" as an interupt during an attack done at the risk of falling off balance but the gain of knocking an enemy more significantly off balance.

Not a whole lot more unless you're just poking the target, barely breaking the skin

A poke with a Rapier is a potential death attack. Though you are partially right unless your swinging wildly or using weapons with sigificant differences between them then there isn't too much time between both of their attacks. Though a weapon with a slower swing causes the person using it to go on the defensive between swings.

That's true, but currently the game has no functionality for attacks of that sort.

A lot in this whole topic would have probably been better left until the Combat arc when movement and attacks are put into different timespans. Currently the game isn't even suited to allow attacks that arn't your full 100% all out attack to be more effective then a possible all out attack.

[tsen]

the point you seem to be missing is that for a cat it isn't BITE4xCLAW. It's: Bite, grapple with 2 claws ("hands") then rake with 2x claws simultaneously with identical motions. So it's really only doing one thing at a given time, *NOT* "dual wielding".

If you're going to use 2 weapons at once, they both need to be attacking or defending independently of one another, or at least coordinated such that one is attacking and one is defending at a time. Which gets us back to the original problem: in real fighting, you use your whole body to attack, not just your forearm or what have you.

Also: UFC is horse puckey. The grappler always wins. Most fighting systems that aren't grappling were (are) intended to maim or kill the other person, and while I am certain that would up the ratings, it would boot them off the air in a hurry. So until it's too the death, grapplers will always win and it will be silly and boring. Not that I'd want to watch it if it was to the death, heh.

[Josephus]

Also: UFC is horse puckey. The grappler always wins. Most fighting systems that aren't grappling were (are) intended to maim or kill the other person, and while I am certain that would up the ratings, it would boot them off the air in a hurry. So until it's too the death, grapplers will always win and it will be silly and boring. Not that I'd want to watch it if it was to the death, heh.

"The grappler" is normally skilled in Jiu-Jutsu. That's one of the maiming systems. Besides, a lot of the strikers use the extremely nasty and effective Muay Thai, with the occasional oddball like Sambo boxing or Shotokan Karate thrown in there.

So technically, you're right. The grappler always wins. This is why majority of the UFC's roster has at least some grappling training. They're all "grapplers".

[Neonivek]

Bite, grapple with 2 claws ("hands") then rake with 2x claws simultaneously with identical motions. So it's really only doing one thing at a given time, *NOT* "dual wielding"

I am confused as to you reasoning. If those claws were somehow "attached" and "weapons" there would be no difference between them and dual wielding.

I am mostly distilling them down to their essence to get the Dual weapons out of the "entirely useless" pile.

in real fighting, you use your whole body to attack, not just your forearm or what have you.

Yes though as I said, some weapons are capable of doing death strikes with so little force that you could kill with just a wrist motion. Then there are also weapons that have a maximum impact that cannot be improved upon.

Plus there are ways to keep momentium with two weapons and do maximum impacts with two weapons that wouldn't be possible with just one (Tonfa). You just don't always do both attacks at once because they leave you vulnerable, they are chance strikes or finishers.

----------------

I have to admit I wonder how the UFC would be if they allowed death attacks and they were to the death.

Though to my knowledge Wrestling and Boxing have a lot of those as well.

[tsen]

To clarify:  They're not making 5 separate attacks. They attack sequentially first biting to latch on, then grappling with a pair of paws (not individual attacks) then raking with a pair of paws. So it's basically 3 weapons in sequence, not 5 at once.

[Medicine Man]

Yes though as I said, some weapons are capable of doing death strikes with so little force that you could kill with just a wrist motion

In cheepo Hollywood movies and WoW yes,but in reality or DF no.

[Neonivek]

To clarify:  They're not making 5 separate attacks. They attack sequentially first biting to latch on, then grappling with a pair of paws (not individual attacks) then raking with a pair of paws. So it's basically 3 weapons in sequence, not 5 at once.

Yes but I have to remove the aspect of uselessness out of having more then one weapon and in using more then one weapon at once.

In cheepo Hollywood movies and WoW yes,but in reality or DF no

Pound to pound the required force to penetrate flesh with a Dirk, Rapier, or Shiv are incredably low.

Mind you it isn't getting past armor (or bone in some cases)... But against an unarmored opponent they could be killed if the weapon simply fell on them from 1 meter above.

[Medicine Man]

Alright,where is the documents of a fatal strike with the flick of a wrist?it has to be many not just one.

[Neonivek]

Alright,where is the documents of a fatal strike with the flick of a wrist?it has to be many not just one.

We don't need that much proof. We just have to find out how much force is required to penetrate flesh with a knife for example.

Also you should go and find out how much force your wrist can exert because it is a bit more then I think you believe it does.

Unfortunately the only number I can give you until I get more research done is 5 pounds with a rapier.

[sweitx]

Quite a few asian weaponry (Filipino eskrima, and Chinese butterfly sword) are designed to be dual wielded.  A few of the combat uses are...
1. Both attack at the same time.
2. Both used to deflect/block at the same time.

The primary use is that with two weapons, you can attack in two direction, if your first strike is blocked, you can use the second weapon to strike while your opponent is occupied with your first weapon.
Another note is that both weapons tend to be on the shorter end, thou the users are trained to use both offensively AND defensively (not just one hand for offense, one hand for defense).

[Josephus]

I know something of escrima/Arnis, which is the historical example I cited early in the page. Again, the style is useful only against unarmored opponents.

The off-hand weapon in Arnis is often used for "flashing", defensive attacks that take the opponent's eye off your main hand attack, but a master with no discernible difference in arm strength and capability can "flash" easily with either hand, or use either hand for a thrusting attack (useless with the bolo/machete or the rattan sticks commonly used, but with a Moro weapon like the Kris, potentially quite effective).

No idea about the butterfly sword.

[sweitx]

No idea about the butterfly sword.

Basically two identical short swords with hand-guard.
Most dual-wielding style I know of are just enhancement to unarmed-combat (effectively same range and effectiveness, just with better weapons).

[zwei]

Alright,where is the documents of a fatal strike with the flick of a wrist?it has to be many not just one.

We don't need that much proof. We just have to find out how much force is required to penetrate flesh with a knife for example.

Also you should go and find out how much force your wrist can exert because it is a bit more then I think you believe it does.

Unfortunately the only number I can give you until I get more research done is 5 pounds with a rapier.

2kg of force is quite easy to pull off.

Emergence of pointy weapons as civillian weapon of choice is quite understandable: lack of armor means that you can use weapons that have easier time inflicting deadly wounds rather than weapons that are effective against armored targets and which are harder to operate in effective manner.

"Edge is for maiming, Point is for killing" kind of thing.

Rapier is however not weapon you issue to infantry the same way that soldiers nowadays do not use handguns - it is not that typical handgun is not effective at killing, but because it is simply not practical.

[Krisnack]

While it's pretty much been established that dual wielding is almost useless for dwarves, what about creatures with more then two arms? I'm thinking of having a having a simple formula of (weapons allowed) = (arms/2).

If you're agreeing with the notion that it is generally ineffective for someone with two hands to weild two weapons, why would it be more effective if they had some extra hands not doing anything, just to meet some ratio?

Unless it were some weapon that did not have the issues of balance that melee weapons do (like crossbows or guns), it would face exactly the same problem.  (Plus, why not quadruple-hand that giant maul, and REALLY make paste out of some bones?)

Even with guns, you run into the same problem of not being able to look down the sights of every weapon, and general difficulty of coordinating the aim of an arbitrary number of weapons (excluding, perhaps something like a hydra with many arms, where there are seperate independently acting brains, eyes, and hands, although we're getting into the really bizzare physiologies at that point...)

Good point. I suppose it might be practical to four arms to carry a halberd and two shields. Or not. You know much more than I do on this subject so I'll defer to your judgment.

The idea of quadruple-hand wielding something is interesting, is it currently possible to wield a longsword with two hands for extra damage?

[Josephus]

We all know Goro could murder anyone barehanded. Imagine that half-dragon bastard with four swords. Shudder.