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[Tehran]

Sorry about the ridiculous title.

I would like to have a discussion with all of you regarding the as-yet untapped possibilities for dwarf emotions, personalities, relationships, and free will.

Some of you may have already visited me and my brother's website, http://dfstories.com/. While out looking for stories for the site, I came across a fantastic story which was, surprisingly, NOT from Dwarf Fortress.

I say "surprisingly" because I've never come across another video game besides DF that's even remotely able to tell good, procedural stories - until I read this one, set in the world of The Sims 3.


http://aliceandkev.wordpress.com/
Go ahead and read it. Do it now!


After reading it, I realized that there is something missing in many Dwarf Fortress stories. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but The Sims 3 has it* and we don't. So why let them hog all the fun?

I'm not sure how personalities, moods, and relationships could possibly be implemented in DF, which is why I'm putting this thread in the general discussion forum instead of the suggestions forum.

I do have some vague, half-baked ideas, though - and tell me if you've heard 'em before:

Instead of the single, crude "happiness" variable that dwarfs have now, they could have a variety of emotions, each one with its own variable - such as happiness, rage, boredom, and blood-alcohol-level (this one can be either too high or too low!) ...I'm sure there are some more, but I can't think of anything else.

Currently, the only emotions that a dwarf has are very limited and predictable. There's only one variable for general happiness, and, of course, the three big moods:
-tantrum
-Insane/berserk
-melancholy

I feel like there could easily be a whole smorgasbord of moods - a spectrum of interacting variables which would allow each dwarf to express themselves uniquely. Like a dwarf who is angry enough to smash stuff, but not SO angry as to do it haphazardly - not breaking his own things, and/or only smashing stuff when out of the sight of others (although that would require all dwarves to have a sense of ownership, and a line-of-sight).
Or maybe a dwarf who is feeling kind of depressed, but not SO depressed as to stop eating entirely. Or perhaps a dwarf who eats MORE when depressed, to the point of sluggishness or even death - or a dwarf who DRINKS more when depressed, leading to all sorts of fun like liver failure, blacking out, vomiting, and death (all of which are already programmed!)

There's also the distinction between one's normal personality, and the mood which one is currently in. I'm not sure how that could be coded.


* I'd very much like to hear from someone who has actually played The Sims 3. (I have only played The Sims #1.) How much of that story do you think came from the game? How much of it was being controlled by the author? (He does, after all, have control over both Kev and Alice. How much, I don't know.)
You can also tell, in some of his screenshots, that he crops off the picture balloons, possibly because the picture is not in line with the story he is telling.
Furthermore, the expressions of the characters are fantastic, but I can't help wondering if they were simply engineered that way by selecting one conversation option over several others which would have garnered much different results - like a little puppet show. But I dunno.


Anyway, what do you guys think? Procedural personalities and interpersonal (interdwarfnal?) relationships... How should they be done? Should they be done at all? How much of this is already planned? Discuss!

[existent]

Listen to DF Talk #8.

Also, I've read that story before, as well as played the sims, so lemme help you there- he has about as much control over them as we have over our dwarves. Usually we can make them do what we want, but not always. As for the story, all of the events actually happened- the "plot", however, is fictional (read: written by the author). Again, much like DF, there's no "story" in the Sims, it's all a matter of what you make of it. That story is about as close to reality as Boatmurdered. The events DID happen that way- but it's the author's take on it that brought it to life (think how much worse Boatmurdered would have been without StarkRavingMad, it's the same deal. The game writes the history book, but the player writes the novel.)

I never before realized how much in common the Sims has with DF. (Interfacing and mainstream-ness aside.)

[Sunday]

[Disclaimer: rambling, disjointed post ahead. Apologies.]

Interesting post. Note: I haven't played the Sims 3, and can't comment on it.

However, I can say that (IMO, at least), while I think moods are very important, I think that getting a coherent, "individualized" personality is more important. And while moods are part of that, I think there are many other important bits as well (habits, as well as the 'characteristics' DF has).

Basically, personalities are only important insofar as they interact with other personalities as well as with society as a whole, because those interactions are the things that drive "events" (which are in turn generally necessary for "story"). And while it's interesting to read over dwarf personalities, it's more interesting when you notice how those personalities interact with the game.

I honestly feel like having a dwarf that selectively destroys things, based on his personality, wouldn't be all that great unless there was something that brought that personality effect to the player's attention - even something like a note that pops up and says "An unknown dwarf has been breaking statues!"

And basically, I think that there need to be more types of social interaction before personalities will be very interesting. Blackmail, theft, sabotage (of an enemy's work, for example), are all examples of personality-driven social interaction that would drive drama. Likewise, things like "loyalty" could be important if the person/thing the dwarf is loyal to is in danger (a loyal husband following his wife into exile, for example; or a soldier loyal to an old mayor assassinating his new replacement).

edit: i've been responding to things you didn't say. But yeah, I get what you're saying, and can dig it.

[existent]

Again, Sunday, I must point you to DF Talk 8. You can't have this conversation without listening to it- everything mentioned this far was in it.

[Christes]

That was ... touching.

[Tehran]

I've listened to all the DF talks, but I listened to #8 again.

He does indeed talk about Dwarf personalities. I typed a bit of it out:

"If that number [happiness] gets down low enough, it looks at... how do they deal with stress... they might throw a tantrum, or if they become sad easily, they can fall into melancholy. So the personality only starts being used in the extreme cases with the low happiness. So it's a pretty simple system and it has lots of problems, as we know."

"There's not a lot to a dwarf's psychological makeup right now, and that's something we want to change."

"Getting rid of that happiness number entirely, and just having having the emotional state on several axises would be a lot better way of handling it. it would also make adventure more more interesting... -- What are you doing, Scamps??"

Looks like Toady is way ahead of me on this one.

[Lawec]

Sorry to tell this but, many of the things that happened in that Sims 3 story is pretty simple to reconstruct. I own the game, and I've tried combining two people, that didn't like each other, pretty often. But Dorf Fortress on the other hand, it is incredibly hard to recreate some situation between two dwarves.

[existent]

Sorry to tell this but, many of the things that happened in that Sims 3 story is pretty simple to reconstruct. I own the game, and I've tried combining two people, that didn't like each other, pretty often. But Dorf Fortress on the other hand, it is incredibly hard to recreate some situation between two dwarves.

Again, I contribute that to the difference in target audience, and nothing more.

[Tehran]

Sorry to tell this but, many of the things that happened in that Sims 3 story is pretty simple to reconstruct. I own the game, and I've tried combining two people, that didn't like each other, pretty often. But Dorf Fortress on the other hand, it is incredibly hard to recreate some situation between two dwarves.

Again, I contribute that to the difference in target audience, and nothing more.

I think it's an important observation. The ideal storytelling game, in my opinion, is one where the player has very little control over how the computer people interact. If the player has too much input, you're just playing with sock puppets.

[KrunkSplein]

(think how much worse Boatmurdered would have been without StarkRavingMad, it's the same deal. The game writes the history book, but the player writes the novel.)

Excellently put.  I just tried saying the same thing in the Moments that make you love Dwarf Fortress thread, but much less eloquently.

[Tehran]

(think how much worse Boatmurdered would have been without StarkRavingMad, it's the same deal. The game writes the history book, but the player writes the novel.)

Excellently put.  I just tried saying the same thing in the Moments that make you love Dwarf Fortress thread, but much less eloquently.

Link to KrunkSplein's comment

All it takes is someone to smooth the text out, and you get tales that are equally entertaining to read as the game is to play.

The words "smooth out the story" are the exact ones I used when talking to my brother about the best kinds of stories for our site. And that's why the superbly written Tale of Two Dwarves will always be one of my favorites.
Want to see one of the worst stories I've come across? This one is pretty terrible. Don't read it - I sure didn't. Just scroll down.

StarkRavingMad definitely made Boatmurdered what it is. Some people just describe event after event in a long, monotonous chain. Others have what it takes to tell a story.

[existent]

StarkRavingMad definitely made Boatmurdered what it is. Some people just describe event after event in a long, monotonous chain. Others have what it takes to tell a story.

I agree. I always try to tell the story from an interesting first person perspective- in one of my current succession games, my dwarf has an anxiety disorder. Another one I wrote with a southern drawl (although, it wasn't perfect, having never actually been to the south).

[Tehran]

As an aside, I've come across one other non-DF story in my searches. It's hilarious: http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=631191

Unfortunately, there's nothing to learn from it that could be used in DF.
Oblivion looks like an awesome, very open-ended game, with tons of characters to interact with, but stories cannot emerge from it because although you can do tons of stuff, everything is literally scripted for the voice actors.
It may still be interesting to compare Oblivion with Nethack and DF adventure mode.

[existent]

As an aside, I've come across one other non-DF story in my searches. It's hilarious: http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=631191

I love how the only thing that makes this such a good story is the fact the author apparently had no control over the events (no memory of them, similar things.)

[Tehran]

As an aside, I've come across one other non-DF story in my searches. It's hilarious: http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=631191

I love how the only thing that makes this such a good story is the fact the author apparently had no control over the events (no memory of them, similar things.)

Exactly. I was just thinking that if it was simply, "Hey guys, look at how many dudes I killed," that nobody would care at all. It's the single element of drunken forgetfulness which makes this a good story worth telling.