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[GlyphGryph]

And here is why it's a vent-worthy issue for me:  To someone who is capable of handling disruptions in their environment, such as a crying child, without freaking out, the person that cannot is infinitely more stressful to be around.  Parents don't get uppity about these kinds of complaints because they think you should love kids unconditionally.  It's because they think that you have an underdeveloped emotional fortitude that is the real disharmony in the situation.

So you're saying that... parents are dicks? Because that's the same exact logic dicks use. "You should care that I'm being a racist, misogynistic pig - the other people here don't care. You just need to grow a thicker skin/develop a little bit of emotional fortitude. It's really bugging me." If you don't care about stressing me out, why, exactly, should I give a shit about doing the same to you?

I have spent time around and enjoyed being around children of all ages - I have an extended family with plenty of kids, I've babysat even young children. I don't really mind brief or mild crying, like from babies that simply don't like the bus. I think it's a bit presumptuous to automatically call anyone who has difficulty concentrating or even who prefers NOT to hear loud, piercing, attention grabbing sounds emotionally stunted"- it would be just as far to say that those who've spent time to children have built up enough of a tolerance to become numb to it. And the sound of crying is /intended/ to grab attention and act as a disharmony! That's what it's for! And there's something wrong with people responding to that? But whatever.

What I, personally, cannot fucking stand? Bad parents. I can not stand children that whine, or throw tantrums, or otherwise intentionally act in a way to inflict injury on the adults around them - but that's not about not liking kids or being around them, that's about not liking people who fail at their responsibilities in a way that makes things worse for everyone else.

[GoombaGeek]

Indeed.

Rage today: I am currently sitting on a bench in Wal-Mart, waiting for the driver I'm supposed to be working with today to get here. I was told to be here around 8. They've said "call back in an hour if he doesn't arrive"

I hate Wal-Mart. I hate Wal-Mart. I hate Wal-Mart. I hate Wal-Mart. I hate Wal-Mart.

What kind of self-respecting Canadian even goes into Wal-Mart?

it is said that if you go in

you will go out

except

except...

EXCEPT...

YOU WILL ENJOY THE FLAVOR OF BIG MACS

i mean seriously has anyone ever eaten one of those things

[RedKing]

What I, personally, cannot fucking stand? Bad parents. I can not stand children that whine, or throw tantrums, or otherwise intentionally act in a way to inflict injury on the adults around them - but that's not about not liking kids or being around them, that's about not liking people who fail at their responsibilities in a way that makes things worse for everyone else.

On that point I'm just gonna say: have a child and then get back to me on that. No matter how well you try to raise a child, instill discipline, manners, etc. they're CHILDREN. They're going to have tantrums. They're going to whine. They're going to be insufferably rude at times in public. This is not automatically an indictment of their parents.

[GlyphGryph]

But the likelihood, intensity, duration, and how the parents respond certainly is.

(The insufferably rude bit, though, I'll give you 100%. It has not been my experience that you can do anything to prevent that at all. )

[RedKing]

Well, removing the child from the premises is not always an option (or the best option...if they're putting up a fit because they don't want to be there, then removing them is giving in to their terrorist demands).

[SalmonGod]

It's hard to tell how tolerant a person actually is based on their venting about a children's behavior on the internet.  It just strikes a nerve with me because of how many people all parents (seriously, ask any parent) have to deal with on a regular basis who are completely intolerant, and make not the slightest effort to empathize with what someone else might be going through.  The fact that the tranquility of their world is being disrupted is the only thing that matters.

Try denying a 3 year old child some toy they see on the shelf in a store.  It doesn't matter how awesome a parent you are.  They're three years old.  They will throw a fit.  They haven't had the opportunity to learn appropriate behavior in this situation yet.  As your child is crying in public, someone is going to accuse you of being a horrible parent with spoiled children because you're currently in the process of teaching your child how not to be spoiled.  The stranger just too absorbed in the minor discomfort you've caused them to realize that.

It doesn't even take something like that, though.  A guy once yelled at me, "SHUT YOUR DAMN KID UP!" because my kid giggled next to him.

are less willing to empathize with other people's varying levels of social skill and emotional development.

I used those specific words for a reason.

So you're saying that... parents are dicks? Because that's the same exact logic dicks use. "You should care that I'm being a racist, misogynistic pig - the other people here don't care. You just need to grow a thicker skin/develop a little bit of emotional fortitude. It's really bugging me." If you don't care about stressing me out, why, exactly, should I give a shit about doing the same to you?

You're drawing a false relationship here between disruptions that are intentional and disruptions that are inevitable.  A person is a dick because they unnecessarily make life more uncomfortable for the people around them and/or simply refuse to behave in the interest of social harmony.

This world has several billion people on it all going about living their lives, and every single person is their own unique set of circumstances.  It's a simple reality that we have to share space with one another now and then, and the sum of all these people's varying circumstances is not going to conform exactly to any one person's sensibilities.  Given this reality, social harmony hinges on the ability of all participants to ignore what doesn't concern them, and to make a reasonable effort not to be disruptive to others.  Those who cannot bother with the former are literally demanding that others stop going about their lives and instead focus on tending to their exclusive comfort, and that is just as disruptive to social harmony as the latter.

And I believe that everyone should spend time around children, even if it makes them uncomfortable, because it takes practice.  Just like it takes years of practice for a child to learn the restraint not to throw a fit when they don't get what they want, it takes years of practice to be thick-skinned about unsolicited noises and activity in your environment.

And the sound of crying is /intended/ to grab attention and act as a disharmony! That's what it's for! And there's something wrong with people responding to that? But whatever.

I should also point out that someone who is experience with children can generally recognize at a subconscious level the urgency level of a cry.  Yeah, it's a noise that's designed for the purpose of being distracting, but it's also more communicative than just that. 

One of my kids starts crying because they're having a mild argument and they don't like the outcome?  I don't consciously register the sound at all.  Somebody else starts complaining about it, and suddenly I'm pressured to get involved.  That bothers me, because I believe it would be healthier for my kids to learn to work problems out between them, instead of seeking the word of authority as a default.  That's when the person who can't tolerate is more disruptive than the kid crying. 

One of my kids starts crying because they got hurt?  I can recognize that and am checking it out immediately.

[Willfor]

Edit: Actually, having thought better of it, I wasn't talking about what you were talking about at all. CARRY ON.

[Skyrunner]

That's interesting—telling between cries.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You know what makes me rage? When parents get all privileged and act like their opinion is inherently more valuable than yours because they managed to breed at some point.

Learning how to act properly in public is a goddamn process. It is not a magic on/off switch. If a kid doesn't know how to act, that is when you are supposed to teach them. Most people just plain let them cry. It isn't hard to just intimidate a kid into silence if they won't be quiet. You're bigger, stronger, and hold all the power over them as parent. Children usually cry for attention, not out of distress. Distress is more of a panicked screaming.

You, on the other hand, appear to be advocating that we should all just tolerate the horrific sound that is a child crying at all times around you. If I played loud music at all hours of the day someone would call the police on me, but you expect us to just make an exception for children? Just because you can ignore it through constant exposure doesn't mean the rest of us will, and we aren't obligated to either. It is your obligation as the child's parent to keep them under control appropriate to the social situation, and if you can't do that you shouldn't be bringing them there.

I might seem kind of strongly opinionated about this, but you'll get that when you're being condescended to by every parent under the sun for your lifestyle choices and also have a misphonic reaction to the sound of children crying. It is perhaps one of the worst sounds to ever exist.

[i2amroy]

Learning how to act properly in public is a goddamn process. It is not a magic on/off switch. If a kid doesn't know how to act, that is when you are supposed to teach them. Most people just plain let them cry. It isn't hard to just intimidate a kid into silence if they won't be quiet. You're bigger, stronger, and hold all the power over them as parent. Children usually cry for attention, not out of distress. Distress is more of a panicked screaming.

I would like to point out that intimidation is a bad way to go about almost anything involved in parenting, and can be one of the major factors involved in abuse. Sure intimidation will work now, but it never actually teaches your child to learn not to cry. Instead it teaches them not to cry when you look angry. And what happens when they get bigger and older? Anything you taught them on intimidation they will probably ignore at that point because you aren't able to intimidate them anymore. And they'll probably resent that you have been intimidating them as well, since they have never learned the reason why you are doing it, they have simply learned to shut up when you look angry. In fact one of the best ways to teach your child not to cry is to ignore it, since, as you mentioned, the main reason why children cry is for attention. If you ignore them then it teaches them that crying is not a good way to get attention, and they will eventually learn that and stop crying over little things. If you intimidate them then all it is teaching them is that your attention is something to fear, which does not promote good relationships and can also cause them to suppress cry's for help when they are needed.

Yes, you may have a hatred for the sound of crying, and that is the reason why people take crying children out of movie theaters and other places; to not annoy those around them. But there is still going to come a point where (as SalmonGod pointed out), the discomfort caused in you is greatly outweighed by the problems leaving the area they are in will cause for the family, and that is the point that you need to be willing to compromise. Because that's what society is built on, compromise.

(Plus for every second you listen to crying in public places now you are in fact probably reducing the amount of crying you have to listen to total as every little amount of time they are ignored on purpose teaches them to stop crying sooner.)

[Nadaka]

I've got a song stuck in my head, I heard it on Hard Drive the other day while stuck in traffic driving home from work the other day. Blood by In This Moment.

[RedKing]

It isn't hard to just intimidate a kid into silence if they won't be quiet.

And that's the first indicator that you simply don't understand the dynamics of being a parent. I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just flat out saying: you don't understand. Hell, *I* didn't understand until I had two of my own.

If you're a good parent, you don't intimidate your children into silence. You just don't. Even when you WANT to. Anymore than you would intimidate a girlfriend into doing something you want that they don't want to. These aren't just small humans that you are legally bound to feed and provide shelter for. They're your goddamn children. Blood of your blood, flesh of your flesh, people you would move Heaven and Earth for, people that can cause you to lash out like an enraged bear when something threatens them.

And yet, people who you are going to have to deny things to. People you are going to treat with love and compassion even when their behavior is such that if it were an adult and a stranger doing it, you'd bitchslap them into the nearest wall.

It is your obligation as the child's parent to keep them under control appropriate to the social situation, and if you can't do that you shouldn't be bringing them there.

That's the second indicator that you don't understand. What would you suggest, a fucking bark collar? Even the most well-behaved child can have triggers that you're completely unprepared for. My son will be happy as lamb, can faceplant into concrete and not cry. But if his fruit bar breaks in half while he's eating it, you would think someone had not only told him that Santa Claus was dead, but actually produced his rotting, decapitated head as proof. He's apoplectic with rage and grief at the universe. It's actually pretty goddamn funny just for the lunacy of it.

But what? If he has one of these random meltdowns, I'm going to race off into a cave somewhere with him? No, I'm going to do my best to calm him down, which usually only takes a minute or two.

[Ehndras]

It isn't hard to just intimidate a kid into silence if they won't be quiet.

And that's the first indicator that you simply don't understand the dynamics of being a parent. I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just flat out saying: you don't understand. Hell, *I* didn't understand until I had two of my own.

If you're a good parent, you don't intimidate your children into silence. You just don't. Even when you WANT to. Anymore than you would intimidate a girlfriend into doing something you want that they don't want to. These aren't just small humans that you are legally bound to feed and provide shelter for. They're your goddamn children. Blood of your blood, flesh of your flesh, people you would move Heaven and Earth for, people that can cause you to lash out like an enraged bear when something threatens them.

And yet, people who you are going to have to deny things to. People you are going to treat with love and compassion even when their behavior is such that if it were an adult and a stranger doing it, you'd bitchslap them into the nearest wall.

It is your obligation as the child's parent to keep them under control appropriate to the social situation, and if you can't do that you shouldn't be bringing them there.

That's the second indicator that you don't understand. What would you suggest, a fucking bark collar? Even the most well-behaved child can have triggers that you're completely unprepared for. My son will be happy as lamb, can faceplant into concrete and not cry. But if his fruit bar breaks in half while he's eating it, you would think someone had not only told him that Santa Claus was dead, but actually produced his rotting, decapitated head as proof. He's apoplectic with rage and grief at the universe. It's actually pretty goddamn funny just for the lunacy of it.

But what? If he has one of these random meltdowns, I'm going to race off into a cave somewhere with him? No, I'm going to do my best to calm him down, which usually only takes a minute or two.

+1 Good Parenting 101

[The Darkling Wolf]

Yes, you're trying to calm him down. I assume people are talking about the parents who completely fucking ignore their children when they're crying. Like they're particularly annoying alarm clocks that will just shut off on their own.

I've had children run up to me when I'm trying to eat my dinner and just start screaming in my face, their parents didn't so much bat an eyelid at this occuring.

[MonkeyHead]

Good parenting is easy to miss as it is the expected norm. Alas, lots of people arent capable of it. I like to think that my 2 little demons are being brought up well, but its not as if I am doing it for praise from the general public - I am doing it as I want them to be good adults in the future.

So, yea, as far as I am concerned people can cope with the odd public tantrum that gets ignored. The ends justifies the means.