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[Aqizzar]

As I understand Japan 'switched sides' in the Second World War because the Allies didn't formally recognize as many territorial gains as Japan would have liked, and Germany promised Japan a free hand in the Pacific and 'racial equality', which the Allies apparently refused to recognize in the Treaty of Versailles. Worthy of its own thread though.

Well, the Allies may not have recognized many territorial hand-overs to Japan after WWI, but the big Western Powers of the post-war did consider Japan important enough to make them a permanent member of the League of Nations' version of the Security Council.  When you think about it, that's a pretty damn big honor, considering it was the UK, France, and a resurgent Italy (and the US if the Senate ratified it) calling Japan an equal power with equal say in their precious new diplomacy club.

Aquizzar: Also note that Japan kind of went shopping through the world when they caught up the 200 years of development they had missed out. I really love how they initially wanted to use the French model for their military, but then switched over to the Prussian (I hope my memory is right on that one) one when Prussia beat up France (again). So, in a way, Japan became a mirror of the prejudices/general conceptions of the 19th century world, about which country was good at what.

Yeah, which caused some pretty huge problems when the Army wanted to emulate the Germans and the Navy wanted to emulate England.  The Army won out political control of the Emperor in the end I think, which was part of why the Navy stagnated later on.  Among all the other stuff, it did turn Japanese politics into a microcosm of the cultural battles of Old Europe.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

I think the historical debate about World War II and its reasons could get really ugly. Remember, there were a lot of "good reasons" claimed:

Germany said that annexing Poland was necessary because they needed room for the growing German population.
They also claimed that their aggression was simply a pre-emptive strike and thus only they defending themselves.
And the entire chapter of exterminating the gipsy and the Jewish population is based on false claims and accusations about terrorism, criminality, and racial preservation.

In other words, there were a lot of excuses given. But fact is that while Germany did a lot of things they shouldn't have done, both in their own country and in the neighboring country, so did Japan do a lot of things especially in Korea which they should not have done.

And personally, that latter point about their actions is the only thing I care about as far as World War II is concerned - a lot of people doing a lot of things they should not have done and which should not be repeated.

Deathworks

P.S.: The emperor concept in Japan is a very interesting thing in itself. As far as I know, Japan has the oldest unbroken dynasty of any monarchy, using a slightly improved version of the Chinese approach (whose dynasties were a tad shorter in their life span (^_^;; ). One of the keys to that longevity was actually that the emperor didn't actually rule the country. The throne had been subverged somewhere around the 8th century, I think, and it never really recovered from that. Actually, the first real governing emperor Shouwa did was declaring the capitulation, it seems - until then, he was basically just another puppet (^_^;;

[Nilocy]

I have to agree I don't 'get' Japanophiles (nice term), I was talking to Umi about this and he explains that quite frankly people growing up in Western Culture _can't_ understand it. We have a totally different outlook on life, work and social ethics. A good example would be that of family connections. To me, this is like a total abomination of the standards set by the culture I grew up in. In Japan, a good example, would be that a dude who moved away from his family home, obviously (without a doubt in their minds) failed all his exams and is totally screwed up his life and is now destitute as a pariah from his families social circle.

Another one is the concept of Salarymen, this shit makes me so sad. When I found out about this group of people it made me realise just how sodding privileged I am not to have grown up with this kind of pressure hovering above me from the moment I was born; it goes that all children in Japan are extremely amazing children, highly creative, intelligent and socially competant for their age. But as they hit the emotional grinder that is their education system they lose all of this; they become (in my mind) drones of the state. Their education system pretty much destroys the majority of freethinking.

This kind of stuff makes me frightened, deeply disturbed and down right saddened by Japanese culture. And there are many more examples of this. Japan is like one massive traumatised man having a mid life crisis.

[Aqizzar]

Yeah, that's a lot of fascinating talk about Japanese culture in Japan.  But it doesn't explain anything about Dragon Ball Z and Full Metal Alchemist being as big if not bigger in the West than in Japan itself, or shit like that Teen Titans cartoon or the host of other faux-animes exploding all over the place, or people who've never seen a katana and will defend to the death why it's the greatest weapon ever invented.  That's what I can't figure out, and I think was the original question of the thread.  I think.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Nilocy: Of course, you are missing the point that the "grinder of an education system" (or rather "exam hell" as it is called) is actually only a phenomenon relevant for parts of the urban population. Not every child in the big cities and only few outside them are really made to suffer that.

It is all too easy to over-simplify things and thus fall victim to prejudice. When you really go over to Japan and meet the people there, you will find that they are much more similar to you then you thought.

Deathworks

[fenrif]

I think a lot of the popularity of japanese things come from it being a completely different culture than ours (in the west at least) but that kinda obsesses about the same things we do. Obviously there are plenty of places in the world with drastically different cultures than ours, but they don't crank out video games and movies about robots, so it's not as engrossing.

Also the reason anime is so popular is probobly because it's a combination of a few things... Animation, which allows much more imaginative sci-fi, fantasy, action, horror, etc to be shown. Also most anime series (at least when I started watching it) have defined beginning/middle/end structures, which at the time wasn't really common in western TV shows. Obviously shows like lost and battlestar galactica have started changing this nowadays.

There's probobly more to it than that, but they seem to be big reasons most of the people I know watch anime.

I have to agree I don't 'get' Japanophiles (nice term), I was talking to Umi about this and he explains that quite frankly people growing up in Western Culture _can't_ understand it. We have a totally different outlook on life, work and social ethics. A good example would be that of family connections. To me, this is like a total abomination of the standards set by the culture I grew up in. In Japan, a good example, would be that a dude who moved away from his family home, obviously (without a doubt in their minds) failed all his exams and is totally screwed up his life and is now destitute as a pariah from his families social circle.

Another one is the concept of Salarymen, this shit makes me so sad. When I found out about this group of people it made me realise just how sodding privileged I am not to have grown up with this kind of pressure hovering above me from the moment I was born; it goes that all children in Japan are extremely amazing children, highly creative, intelligent and socially competant for their age. But as they hit the emotional grinder that is their education system they lose all of this; they become (in my mind) drones of the state. Their education system pretty much destroys the majority of freethinking.

This kind of stuff makes me frightened, deeply disturbed and down right saddened by Japanese culture. And there are many more examples of this. Japan is like one massive traumatised man having a mid life crisis.

You'll find people like that in the US, UK, etc too. It's not something specific to Japan.

Also, both education systems I've been subjected too (US and UK) are designed to destroy the majority of free thinking, individuality and creativity.

[Nikov]

Hi!

EDIT: Nikov: Ah, okay, I stand corrected. However, we can agree that Japan had not really suffered from World War I as had Europe... As I said, history is not my major.

Thank you, and this is really as far as I cared to derail the topic. STOP TALKING ABOUT WW2 PEOPLE.

[Ephemeriis]

And Japan, itself, is an interesting place.  They were initially very insular, holding off the influence of the Western world for decades...  And then we went and nuked them..

I could swear that *something* happened between those two events.

Just to clarify:  I did not mean to imply a strict timeline nor that the nuking was somehow unfair or unwarranted.  I was simply listing interesting events off the top of my head.  There aren't that many nations in the world that have been nuked - and its impact on the culture has been pretty profound.

[bjlong]

I find it odd that people are talking about Japan, when the topic is about the subculture of Japanophiles. I'm sure Japan is a pretty cool place with pretty cool people, and, aside from some different values and very different mythologies, pretty much like everywhere else in the world. But Japanophiles aren't quite that. They seem to have completely different values from a lot of actual Japanese people I've met.

E: LOL NEVER MIND

[fenrif]

I find it odd that people are talking about Japan, when the topic is about the subculture of Japanophiles. I'm sure Japan is a pretty cool place with pretty cool people, and, aside from some different values and very different mythologies, pretty much like everywhere else in the world. But Japanophiles aren't quite that. They seem to have completely different values from a lot of actual Japanese people I've met.

I've got several friends in this subculture, and I want to point out a running list of quirks that I've been keeping.

1) Japanese phrases everywhere. If they're not calling you "bjlong-san" then they're saying something that you will never understand, and refuse to explain it to you unless you bluntly stop talking to them.

2) There are three reactions to a peice of art: Either it's the best thing ever, it needs more [Insert Japan thing here], or it's like that one time in this anime they were watching and have you seen it? Oh my god, you're coming with me. I'm going to make you watch this thing.

3) Crappy swords. For some reason, they want the absolute crappiest-looking sword. Now, I have nothing against wall-hangers, or even overworked fantasy knives, but I swear that every last one I've talked to has tried to say that some absolutely idiotic design choice is perfect for some move that actually can't happen. I never know how to deal with this.

4) Insisting that character X from series Y can beat character A from series B. This, I can fathom most of the time. However, for some reason, I've run into people who compare characters of completely different powerscales--like comparing Superman with Spiderman. Yes, Superman would win in a fight, but the narrative tension of Spiderman is the fact that he's always the underdog, often not powerful enough. THIS EXACT EXCHANGE HAS HAPPENED WITH ANIME CHARACTERS MULTIPLE TIMES.

5) This one is truly strange to me. There seems to be a hierarchy of races in many people's minds: If you're black, that's only OK. If you're white, that's good. If you're Japanese, you're at the top of the ladder. This seems more like an underlying assumption then explicit, violent racism. And it weirds me out.

6) An extreme assumption of stoicism. I've had someone tell me that Wolverine isn't badass because he talks too much. I've had people tell me that they don't like a lot of western action movies because the hero isn't badass, as he shows too much pain. I'm afraid to bring up Die Hard.

Feel free to explain some of these, add to the list, or tell me that you've never encountered anyone who did that, or whatever.

Your friends sound like dicks, no offense.

A lot of that is just people being completely socially inept and geeky, you get that everywhere. If you think that there aren't japanese people who do all those things you are mistaken.

That being said, noone I know does any of that crap (except number 4, but thats just stoner talk usually and isn't really something you need to get OMFG CAPSLOCK WTF YOU TALKING ABOUT angry over) and pretty much everyone I know watches anime.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Bjlong, while I consider myself a fan of manga and anime as well as many other aspects of Japan, most of the things you point out are not true at least for me. It seems that the fandom is more diverse than you make it seem.

Comparing myself to your statements:
1) Holds only slightly true. While I usually don't -san people, I may -chan the characters in my drawings to express care and love for those children. When exclaiming things, I may also use Japanese when it expresses my feelings perfectly. However, I am willing to explain things to those who don't know.

2) Nope. Not with me. While I consider Higurashi no naku koro ni the best anime ever, I generally see more options for artistic expression.

3) Not my kind of game.

4) Also not my kind of game. I may be wrong, but doesn't that also occur in Western comic fandom?

5) Nope. And frankly, you have some weird friends (putting it very politely) if they really feel that way.

6) Absolutely no

In general, these items you list remind me of a certain section of teenager fandom oriented towards the more violent shounen anime/manga. As I hinted at, there is a great diversity in the medium and thus, there is also a diversity in the fandom. I doubt that anyone who is interested in manga where weapons appear only in 0.01% of the cases would have a major sword fetish like that. So, I think you are generalizing a bit too much.

And as to why Japan has been discussed in this thread - at least in my assumptions, holding something in high esteem is the result of some merit. For instance, we have special respect for Toady One for various reasons including the great work he has done on programming Dwarf Fortress, but also for being a very friendly and responsible person, not to mention his generosity in sharing Dwarf Fortress for free with us. If asked why we respect Toady One, would it not be natural to list those traits of Toady One I mentioned above?

Deathworks

[bjlong]

In general, these items you list remind me of a certain section of teenager fandom oriented towards the more violent shounen anime/manga. As I hinted at, there is a great diversity in the medium and thus, there is also a diversity in the fandom. I doubt that anyone who is interested in manga where weapons appear only in 0.01% of the cases would have a major sword fetish like that. So, I think you are generalizing a bit too much.

Makes sense. I'll get rid of the list, then.

Your friends sound like dicks, no offense.

They're ok around 50% of the time. The other 50%, I'm usually not there.

[alway]

or people who've never seen a katana and will defend to the death why it's the greatest weapon ever invented.  That's what I can't figure out, and I think was the original question of the thread.  I think.

They are the best weapon because ninjas use them.

[DJ]

By that logic cutlass is the best weapon.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

They are the best weapon because ninjas use them.

While I am not specializing in weapons either, I think you mean ninja-to (ninja swords). Katana and wakizashi were actually the weapons of the samurai, the knight equivalent which got highly mystified in Japan in the recent one and a half century (^_^;;

Deathworks