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[Pathos]

I really don't "get it". Is it just because they're a pretty damn alien culture, or what?

Anime isn't really all that good. There're a few that stick out on artistic merit, but the rest seem pretty bland and uninspired. Manga is even worse, and I prefer Western comics simply because the art style is better.

The culture itself is seriously messed up (from a Western perspective of course) with how it treats women etc etc.

You all get where I'm going with this. So, explain to me, what's the obsession with the Japanese?

[CJ1145]

I think this is the one post you've ever made that wasn't trolling, Pathos.

As ironic as it is, Manga/Anime is at its best when it has nothing to do with Japan. Fullmetal Alchemist is in some weird Germany-like country, and it's a lot better for it.

Most manga and anime tends to suck, and the people that like them range from mildly strange, like my Asian friend, to totally fucking insane, like the cosplayers (and my Asian friend). I think it's the difference in culture that is intriguing to them, because there's nowhere on earth quite as innocently screwed up as Japan.

[MrWiggles]

This is toward the anime and manga. I dont give to winks toward japanese cultrual, outside helping me understand what going on in the media I an viewing.

My preferences are different therefor your preferences are dumb?

[MrWiggles]

I think this is the one post you've ever made that wasn't trolling, Pathos.

As ironic as it is, Manga/Anime is at its best when it has nothing to do with Japan. Fullmetal Alchemist is in some weird Germany-like country, and it's a lot better for it.

Most manga and anime tends to suck, and the people that like them range from mildly strange, like my Asian friend, to totally fucking insane, like the cosplayers (and my Asian friend). I think it's the difference in culture that is intriguing to them, because there's nowhere on earth quite as innocently screwed up as Japan.

Sturgeon laws applies to all cultural. 90% percent of it is crap. The more culturally inclined ones, I dont get. Its to alien for me. I'm just a fan of cartoons, despite their origins.

[smigenboger]

*Everyone* I know who's into anime is messed up in the head. The subculture draws them in, and then they attract other likewise messed up people into it. Japanese stuff gives them an excuse to go around and enact on the kinky things they're into. I haven't met one person who isn't like this, and is into anime.

[MrWiggles]

*Everyone* I know who's into anime is messed up in the head. The subculture draws them in, and then they attract other likewise messed up people into it. Japanese stuff gives them an excuse to go around and enact on the kinky things they're into. I haven't met one person who isn't like this, and is into anime.

I dont see how this is unique for otakus? Dont sport fans go crazy with their own cos play, by wearing paint on their skin when there snow on the ground, or sci fi geeks getting dressed up to go see movies?

[Emperor_Jonathan]

Its all those darn Weeaboos.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Ephemeriis]

Is it just because they're a pretty damn alien culture

That's certainly part of it.  Eastern philosophy/religion/world-view is markedly different than Western.  Not just Japan...  China, Korea, India...  All very different.  Different thought processes, different architecture...  Entirely different view of the world.

Anime isn't really all that good. There're a few that stick out on artistic merit, but the rest seem pretty bland and uninspired. Manga is even worse, and I prefer Western comics simply because the art style is better.

That's like saying "comic books aren't really all that good" or "live action movies aren't really all that good" or "novels aren't really all that good".  It's an art form, or maybe a communication medium.  It encompasses a huge spectrum of genres...  Some of it is fictitious, some is non-fiction, some is sci-fi, some is fantasy, some is realistic, some is serious, some is humorous...  Some of it will be good, some of it will be bad.

The culture itself is seriously messed up (from a Western perspective of course) with how it treats women etc etc.

Not really.  I mean, it's certainly different.  Very different ideas of what is normal or acceptable for each gender...  But it isn't really any better/worse than Western cultures...  Nor any more or less repressive...  Nor any more or less messed up...

You all get where I'm going with this. So, explain to me, what's the obsession with the Japanese?

I disagree with the initial premise that there is an obsession with the Japanese.

In certain segments of society - such as teenagers - there might be a genuine obsession with Japan.  But Western society as a whole?  Or US society as a whole?  Nah, I just don't see it.

There is certainly a fascination with Eastern thought/culture - just because it is so different from our own.  It's exotic.  But you'll see other exotic areas feature heavily in popular media as well - Egypt, various South American rain forests and ruins, the Middle East...  We get tired of seeing our same old Western world all the time.  We like to see something "foreign".

And Japan, itself, is an interesting place.  They were initially very insular, holding off the influence of the Western world for decades...  And then we went and nuked them...  And then we tried to impose our philosophy on them for a few decades...  They've got an interesting blend of traditional values and modern high-technology...  Interesting artwork, interesting language, interesting geography...

But you could say an awful lot of that about many other places.

[DJ]

And Japan, itself, is an interesting place.  They were initially very insular, holding off the influence of the Western world for decades...  And then we went and nuked them..

I could swear that *something* happened between those two events.

[smigenboger]

Haha yeah, there's nuts that are into other things, I mean't I haven't seen someone who is into anime and not crazy. I won't lump everyone in, just most of them. The ones are aren't won't be into it for too long.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

First of all, I would warn against assessments of manga and anime in general if you happen to live outside of Japan - unless you regularly buy manga/anime in Japan and have an overview over the market. After all, if you are relying on translations, you only get those titles that a) seem good chances to make cash in your country (commcercial translations) or b) struck the fancy of the group translating it (fantranslations). B) brings in a lot of personal bias, so you are not getting anything that the people who translate find uncool. A) means that only those things that the business types believe to sell in the target market will get translated.

Example: The most traditional division (which is already obsolete but still applicable) is between shounen and shoujo manga/anime, that is manga and anime for boys and for girls. In Japan, both types roughly have an equal share of the market. If you turn on European television and watch the anime that are shown there, guess what: nearly exclusively shounen anime plus the magical girl sub genre of the shoujo anime, which is, at least on the manga level, a really small and unimportant subgenre of shoujo manga.

Or putting it more bluntly: TV anime in Europe and the US are a selection of the worst (with a few good ones they couldn't ignore) based on the assumption that the rest is not appealing to the audience.

Another example where I want reader participation: What do you know about manga? Especially, what is the most basic type of shoujo manga (manga for girl), which makes up about 90% of the shoujo manga in Japan (please don't use wikipedia or something else, but simply give your gut feeling). Answer will be given in a later post together with my personal reasons for liking manga/anime.

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The next aspect that is very interesting is the doujinshi culture: There is a very strong culture where amateurs produce entertainment products at high quality and sell it. As far as I know, such a culture has not been anywhere else, although the Japan-fandom has recently made it spread to Europe as well. Take, for example, Higurashi no naku koro ni, my favorite anime. Originally, it was a series of sound novels made by amateurs (actually even complete amateurs in as far as they were their first creations). Those sound novels were sold and were able to get turned into anime and get ported to other platforms on a professional level. And this is not such an unusual thing.... Where else do you have a culture that is so strongly artistically inclined?

----------------------

Religious tolerance is also an important aspect, but that is actually not unique to Japan, but is something you can find in many South and Southeast Asian countries. It is usually not so important which religion you have and Japanese culture traditionally actually viewed things very flexibly (with a dent of 100 years between 1848 and 1949, where nationalism required the declaration and abstracting of a state religion). Nowadays, if you want to see religious intolerance, the only things you find regularly are the posters "You shalt have no other God", which are spread by those friendly youths New Zealand's Christian churches constantly send over to do missionary work.

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"Uchi" and "Soto". While the strong division between private and public is often criticized for making the public impersonal, I personally think that it is actually a good and useful culture, as by separating private and public completely, it guarantees your privacy. It would seem non-sensical in that context, for instance, to forbid sex in any other position than the missionary position, and even beyond that, as long as you don't cause harm to others, you are basically free to do as you like in your private life. In other words, there is actually a maximum of liberty provided.

------------------------

All these factors (and some more) have resulted in a very colorful and creative culture that overs a lot, really a lot for those who know where to look.

Deathworks

[Nikov]

And Japan, itself, is an interesting place.  They were initially very insular, holding off the influence of the Western world for decades...  And then we went and nuked them..

I could swear that *something* happened between those two events.

The Nanking Massacre or Nanjing Massacre, also known as the Rape of Nanking, was a six-week period following the Japanese capture of the city of Nanjing (Nanking), the former capital of the Republic of China, on December 13, 1937. During this period, hundreds of thousands of civilians were murdered and 20,000–80,000 women were raped by soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army. -- Wikipedia

Justifies...

On Monday, August 6, 1945, at 8:15 AM, the nuclear bomb 'Little Boy' was dropped on Hiroshima by an American B-29 bomber, the Enola Gay,[15] directly killing an estimated 80,000 people. By the end of the year, injury and radiation brought total casualties to 90,000-140,000.[16] Approximately 69% of the city's buildings were completely destroyed, and about 7% severely damaged.

Turnabout is fair play, bitches. We vaporized as many people as they raped, and the total Chinese casualties are estimated as high as 300,000. Furthermore the bombing of Hiroshima had military value

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

During World War II, the Second Army and Chugoku Regional Army were headquartered in Hiroshima, and the Army Marine Headquarters was located at Ujina port. The city also had large depots of military supplies, and was a key center for shipping.

, Nanking had already been captured and required no such devastation.

Then there's the 1.5 million US casualties it prevented by forcing a surrender before we actually invaded. I've read the general staff pre-invasion estimates, prepared without knowledge of the bomb being an option. They expected another two years of war, at least.

So yeah. Before the bleeding hearts get funny ideas in their head about Japan being this honorable foe the evil Americans decided to irradiate out of spite, I just thought I'd clear that shit up.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Good point, Nikov, although we could argue for seven and a half threads about whether Hiroshima was really justified or justifiable or not - as with all moral questions, you can make a big debate about it, so let's not do that.

None of the big players in World War II was really squeamish about their methods and all sides did things that civilized people nowadays would not approve of. Mind you, this is not to defend the Japanese, but simply to point out that evaluating these things can be very tricky.

I have to admit that I kind of overlooked the statement you replied to. Just to clarify the entire historical context: Japan closed its border in the 17th century, allowing only visits by Dutch merchants until it was forced by US military boats around 1848 to open its harbors and agree to uneven treaties with the US and then some European powers. Having more or less stagnated (and also somewhat declined) during that period with only limited outside stimulus, Japan then raced through a very aggressive modernization in order to catch up with Europe and the US so they can negotiate as equals. For various reasons, one aspect that also came into play was a very aggressive, nearly obsessive nationalism and militarism. It is also noteworthy that Japan was, as far as I know, the only major player of World War II who had NOT participated in World War I, which already had kind of traumatized Europe and begun to knock at least a little bit of sense into them (obviously not enough as Hitler proved). I can't say how much of a racial awareness they have had before 1848, as I have not really studied that, but they eagerly picked up the race ideas that were en vogue in Europe around the turn of the century, and such racial ideas were definitely involved in their actions prior to and during World War II.

Deathworks

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

Most of my DnD group are horrific weaboos. There's only really me (currently I'm the DM) and our wizard who aren't A: obsessed with Japan and B: ranging from mildly odd to full-on skin-crawling unwashed weirdness.
 

[Cthulhu]

If we're seriously going down and dirty with a Japan Nuke fight, I'd like to establish that it's not like the nuke was crossing some untrodden moral line that made it terrible.

The line was crossed here, here, here,

The Nanking Massacre or Nanjing Massacre, also known as the Rape of Nanking, was a six-week period following the Japanese capture of the city of Nanjing (Nanking), the former capital of the Republic of China, on December 13, 1937. During this period, hundreds of thousands of civilians were murdered and 20,000–80,000 women were raped by soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army. -- Wikipedia

^There, and here.

Especially wonderful is:

During the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials the accused, such as Major General Kiyashi Kawashima, testified that, in 1941, some 40 members of Unit 731 air-dropped plague-contaminated fleas on Changde. These attacks caused epidemic plague outbreaks.

So yeah, the nukes were only special because of how fast and spectacular they were.  We had been hideously murdering thousands of people and ruining land for decades since the beginning of the war.  It's kind of what happens in wars.


Also, I have to agree that most Japanophiles I've seen cause my nose to wrinkle from the smell of onions teen feet away.  The whole thing with little girls and adult girls and girls everywhere that don't actually exist really reeks of creepy.

That being said, if you like a bit of anime and stuff, and prefer Japan to America, I don't care as long as you take showers regularly and don't carry a Kagome body-pillow around (And those apply to anyone, not just weeaboos)


EDIT:  Oh wait, it looks like Deathworks already covered what I said.  Darnit.