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[Greiger]

Just a few ☼ from me. 

*You like a game concept enough to make a clone of an existing game?
     Fine, a lot of games do that.  It's nothing new. Titan's Quest and Sacred are two examples of games that are clearly based on another game's concept (Diablo).  It can even be done in a respectful way.

*Reverse engineer said game to do it? 
     Not cool, make it your own game.  Even if it is a clone of another game, do the things it does in your own way.  Gives the game character. 

*Tell people to stop donating to the original freeware game and donate to yours instead?
     D*** move.  Something like that makes me lose all respect.  Makes me ashamed that I used [the program] back when it was a visualizer.

[Nonsapient]

Serious question:  How old is Impaler?

[G-Flex]

One thing:
Khazad as of now is hardly a clone of anything. It's meant to be a game *inspired* by DF's Fortress Mode.

"Inspired" can mean a few things.

Take a look at this file. Anything look familiar to you? Almost all of it should, because it's not just "inspired" by DF, it appears to be a damn near exact re-implementation of it, with a few changes where Impaler feels he wants them. This isn't just "inspired by" DF, it's looking to be a clone in every sense of the word.

He's not just taking DF as inspiration, he's taking it as his sole inspiration (for the most part). He's trying to make DF, but better. This is clear from the above feature/goal list.

[Nonsapient]

One thing:
Khazad as of now is hardly a clone of anything. It's meant to be a game *inspired* by DF's Fortress Mode.

"Inspired" can mean a few things.

Take a look at this file. Anything look familiar to you? Almost all of it should, because it's not just "inspired" by DF, it appears to be a damn near exact re-implementation of it, with a few changes where Impaler feels he wants them. This isn't just "inspired by" DF, it's looking to be a clone in every sense of the word.

He's not just taking DF as inspiration, he's taking it as his sole inspiration (for the most part). He's trying to make DF, but better. This is clear from the above feature/goal list.

If he's stupid enough to blather about this to all and sundry for a year, AND post it on GIThub openly... how did this last this long?

What a tool.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

I am really appalled by this lack of respect: So, the idea is good enough for you to rip off, but not good enough to show respect to the one who created it?

I have not looked at the project page of that "clone", but what was quoted here already gives me the impression that this is an over-ambitious coder (as opposed to a programmer). I mean, unless he has a big, dedicated team, OR simply copies the code of Toady One despite apparently looking down on him (!?!) that thing will never float. Even producing a normal, main stream game is a lot of work, and the concept of Dwarf Fortress clearly surpasses the bulk of main stream games by a lot.

But frankly, I am not surprised by this show of utter lack of respect. And I am glad that Toady One has showed him the door. As for acting against the project outside of the forums here, I don't think Toady One should do that unless there is clear copyright infringement. Without stealing parts of the engine, I don't think that project will get anywhere any time soon, and if Toady One acted now, Impaler would just see that as proof to his claims of superiority as Toady One in his eyes showed fear.

Deathworks

EDIT: Speaking of lines not to cross: interactive fiction (a.k.a. text adventures) has been mentioned elsewhere on the general general discussion forum, and I got this idea for a little interactive fanfiction (basically the player being an adventurer who can visit a dozen of rooms in an abandoned fortress and encounter some classic jokes/bugs we all know and love). Something like that would be alright, wouldn't it?

[Jackrabbit]

In my cursory search I found him ragging on the UI, and how the game ultimately suffers and ruined by it, and he referred to bay12'er as sycophants.

That's because most of you are. Not that that justifies his theft.

I'd sort of forgotten what sycophant means (I thought it meant just utter worship or something) so I looked it up. I was rather surprised to see it be almost like that but different enough that I think you're wrong.

I'm really not seeing it at all. I think most if not all of us totally respect Toady's freedom to do what he wants with Dwarf Fortress and I'm pretty sure anyone who constantly praises Toady just to curry favor is in the minority. I for one don't remember hurling compliments at Toady at an attempt to curry favor, but because Toady has done a lot to earn my respect and I think that is true for a lot of people here (although if they want to come forward and confirm it, that'd help). I don't need his favor, really. As long as he doesn't ban me, Dwarf Fortress is and always will be free so it matters not a whit.

[zwei]

...

Predictions:

In about 3 months, there will be first buggy and incomplete release. Marketed as "improved df". Only to fall short because people a) never heard of df and having to desire to try it out b) heard of it and also heard about clone issues. There will be angry blog post decrying conspiracy of sycophants ad also epic fail.

He will suceed in collecting small dedicated group of sycophants of his own who will furiously support him on his blog posts and worship his creations. But there won't be anymore releases because easy-to-do stuff will run out.

Blog will live on thou and at least 30% of posts will be df-fandom-hate related.

Internet will have new obscure SmallNameBigEgo celebrity.

[Djohaal]

...

Predictions:

In about 3 months, there will be first buggy and incomplete release. Marketed as "improved df". Only to fall short because people a) never heard of df and having to desire to try it out b) heard of it and also heard about clone issues. There will be angry blog post decrying conspiracy of sycophants ad also epic fail.

He will suceed in collecting small dedicated group of sycophants of his own who will furiously support him on his blog posts and worship his creations. But there won't be anymore releases because easy-to-do stuff will run out.

Blog will live on thou and at least 30% of posts will be df-fandom-hate related.

Internet will have new obscure SmallNameBigEgo celebrity.

Clarividence +5

[Jackrabbit]

The word sycophant is really being chucked around a lot.

But seriously, who here honestly compliments or praises Toady in the hope that he'll like you or, I don't know, give you the new release just before everyone else?

Who here praises him because he's consistently proven to be worth it?

[Sabin Stargem]

His work speaks for itself.  Quite dwarven, I would think.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Zwei: A very likely scenario indeed :) :)

Jackrabbit: Allow me to express my attitude towards Toady One:

First of all, as a fellow human being, he deserves basic respect. That is always the starting point.

Secondly, he is a creator, which means he deserves extra respect and protection. That is one of fundamental creeds: he is creating something based on his own feelings, which is something to respected and which also leaves him more vulnerable than those who don't create anything. Thus, protection is a must.

Third, Dwarf Fortress is a thing of beauty in my eyes, fulfilling the promises and hopes I associated with the original SimCity series - for me, it is just the right approach to an enjoyable simulator game. Of course, someone who creates something that is very enjoyable in my eyes deserves special respect from me.

Finally, there is also the aspect of gratitude: Toady One created a thing of beauty (+ 1 gratitude) and made it easily available via the internet (+ 1 gratitude). And to add to that, it is for free (+ 1 gratitude) (yes, I admit, I haven't donated yet).

Of course, there are things that I hope will change or will not change in the game (see my comments about keyboard driven controls for my strongest feelings), but I don't believe that compliments can really sway development. If anything, showing the positive aspects of what I am in favor of and showing the negative aspects of what I dislike seems to me as the way that has the best chances of influencing the development - if such influence can actually be achieved.

But in the end, this is Toady One's piece of art, and while I may make open suggestions, I can't demand anything about it. And if I find a development displeasing so as to make it unbearable, I can always stay with the older versions which I found satisfying.

EDIT: Ah, as for Toady One and respect, there is also an additional boost in respect for putting together so complex a project. I have been fiddling with programming a little bit and believe that I got a lot of the theory of programming down, but I have yet to finish anything, usually biting off more than I can chew (and the bites I have taken are much, much smaller than Dwarf Fortress). Therefore, while I can't make a definite statement, I think I can still make a rather educated guess at just how huge a project Dwarf Fortress is and how huge an achievement it is to actually get that working. This is far beyond simple coding, and that means a lot of work and forethought/consideration.

Deathworks

[Siquo]

Adding to that:
Fifthly, Toady inspires. Toady inspired me to start programming again. If one man can create something like DF, give it away for free, and still make a living out of donations, I should at least be able to make something that approaches 0.1% of its awesomeness. Toady even inspired impaler, apparently.

[Thundrim]

Respect is something that should be the default state of affairs, and any deviations an exception. Alas this is not always so. A creator is protective of his creations, and that is a fundamental element to observe and indeed respect. Without creation we stagnate and go no further, so preserve and protect those who move us forward, or else much of the world will stagnate and creativity be subdued. That is a very bleak future indeed. :-)

---

[Jackrabbit]

I think we'd need a few more examples but I think that's as good a proof as any that the number of sycophants on this site is low.

[Diablous]

...

Predictions:

In about 3 months, there will be first buggy and incomplete release. Marketed as "improved df". Only to fall short because people a) never heard of df and having to desire to try it out b) heard of it and also heard about clone issues. There will be angry blog post decrying conspiracy of sycophants ad also epic fail.

He will suceed in collecting small dedicated group of sycophants of his own who will furiously support him on his blog posts and worship his creations. But there won't be anymore releases because easy-to-do stuff will run out.

Blog will live on thou and at least 30% of posts will be df-fandom-hate related.

Internet will have new obscure SmallNameBigEgo celebrity.

That will probably be how it ends.