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[Arkenstone]

This thread is meant to be a replacement thread for one that went sour...  Please keep this thread from going the same way.


I'd like to start by saying that the first possible solution is to simply do all the research that Toady didn't have time to do; we then compile up a mod that has all these fixes in it (and nothing else) and if it works, and Toady likes it, he can put the updated values into vanilla.

[Foxbyte]

Isn't there already a combat rebalance mod elsewhere? Or do you mean the effect of metal in the armor itself and not numbercrunching weapons to balance with it?

[Arkenstone]

The question is, should combat be rebalanced to what we think it should be like, or should we try to just update the realism and not rebalance anything unless it's seriously flawed (and teeth not piercing skin is seriously flawed).  I would prefer to first help get vanilla up to where Toady wants it, and then build our own mods off of that.  'Cuz if we're all impatient, we're gunna have to remake our mods each time there's an update.  I'm sure that with lots of people trying to help, materials can actually get up to its version 1 goals, and we won't have to redo all of our work until it comes out (a looong time from now).

[Shiv]

What makes ya'll think armor is imbalanced any how?  My dwarves are still losing limbs, breaking arms, and being otherwise mangled through their armor as it is.

[darkflagrance]

If you look at the modding forum, the issue of teeth/hooves being weak has been found to be a bug that can easily be fixed (teeth/hooves are considered by the game to be of the same material as skin).

[Kazindir]

I think you've answered your own question. If you want to avoid needless work duplication or heading off down entirely the wrong track altogether, settle down and wait until the known issues with combat have been resolved - or delayed indefinitely - first before trying to "rebalance" everything to fit your personal paradigms of How Combat Should Work.   

[Arkenstone]

If you look at the modding forum, the issue of teeth/hooves being weak has been found to be a bug that can easily be fixed (teeth/hooves are considered by the game to be of the same material as skin).

Can you give me a link?  I've been searching but I can't seem to find it.

[o_O[WTFace]]

What exactly did you have in mind for what balanced combat should be like? 

As for tinkering with things to improve realism, I don't think thats going to be easy until more things are implemented and in the raws.  Like: Material damage, multiple material items (steel plated, wood backed shields), dwarf strength/speed/experience vs weapon weight speed calculations, internal bleeding, blunt force trauma. 

I've been tinkering with the raws a bit in my own personal modded DF and I'm going to try moving all the material values closer together.  A steel hat should not be immune to a bronze sword, it should just perform better enough to justify the effort of steelmaking.  A bone hat should provide some level of protection and damage absorption even from a steel sword.  You might still die from it, but maybe you end up in one piece instead of 2.  Realistic?  No idea.  Better balance wise?  I think so.  It doesn't take much of an advantage to make one material better then the other. 

Also overall I'm going to weaken weapons/strengthen meat.  Mostly so combat generates less limbs everywhere that need to be cleaned up, but also because then its more about multiple cumulative injuries and endurance and less like a lightsaber duel where nothing happens for a while and then someone gets chopped in half.

[Kilo24]

*shrug*

I'm pretty sure that most weapons/armor balance issues are on the agenda.  I doubt Toady is content with the current system, and think that he'll keep tweaking it until it's pretty close to reality, as far as wounds delivered by a good hit and relative weapon/armor balance goes.

So, I'm not sure that a call to him to rebalance armor is *that* useful for the current game, but us discussing where the system fails in regard to reality could be useful.  I still need to play more with the combat system to say much for certain, however.  Unrelated bugs have kept me from playing the game long enough to complain about the ones related to this topic.

[tastypaste]

There's only a few changes that need to be made.

1. Teeth need to pierce skin.
2. Spears and piercing weapons need to target vital areas more often rather than stabbing off fingernails.
3. Mega Beasts shouldn't be immortal.
4. Maces, spiked balls need to do more damage than simply bruising flesh.

Make those changes and I'll be content with the weapon balance.

[Arkenstone]

There's only a few changes that need to be made.

1. Teeth need to pierce skin.
2. Spears and piercing weapons need to target vital areas more often rather than stabbing off fingernails.
3. Mega Beasts shouldn't be immortal.
4. Maces, spiked balls need to do more damage than simply bruising flesh.

Make those changes and I'll be content with the weapon balance.

I'd agree to everything here except for spears: sometimes all you get is a glancing blow, and spears are too powerful as it is.

[Urist McDepravity]

Armour itself is not that big issue. Its the wounds system that is.
Dorf can have his heart pierced and continue to fight as nothing happened.

[Langdon]

There's only a few changes that need to be made.

1. Teeth need to pierce skin.
2. Spears and piercing weapons need to target vital areas more often rather than stabbing off fingernails.
3. Mega Beasts shouldn't be immortal.
4. Maces, spiked balls need to do more damage than simply bruising flesh.

Make those changes and I'll be content with the weapon balance.

If there are only a few changes, and these changes are actual mistakes in the raws, shouldn't this be better served by making a bug report on the bug tracker? so that it can go into the next version as soon as possible?

I think we should separate actual mistakes (teeth/bone as soft as skin) from "rebalancing" or "realism" mods (making iron as hard as bronze, for ex).

[Jiri Petru]

I *think* (meaning I read it somewhere) there's a hardcoded problem with armour - that it works binary. All or nothing. Either it deflects the strike completely or it lets it through completely. There might be some minor injuries that get through but they're just bruises, which means next to nothing. In other words: it seems impossible to win with a copper weapon against a steel armor. The better material always wins.

An example that happened to me yesterday: a dwarf of mine got ambushed and was promptly knocked unconcious. There was a human swordsman and five goblin archers fighting him. The archers emptied their quivers (50 arrows) each while the swordsman was stabbing the unconcious guy, then proceeded to bash him with the bows. After a looong time, they managed to sever his hands, ears and nose, while most other parts were uninjured. Reason? The dwarf wore iron armour, and the swordsman's copper sword wasn't able to do him any harm.

I know there's a bug where unconcious creatures don't die of bleeding, but that doesn't explain why didn't they stab him to death in the first place. Armour shouldn't work on a simple YES/NO basis. Call me heretic, but the old percentual system was much better.

---
EDIT: More on topic. It seems it's not really a problem of wrong RAW values, much more a problem of the code itself.
EDIT2: Though he armour wouldn't be that much of a problem if (a) broken limbs and organs actually hindered fighting abilities, (b) creatures were able to finish off an unconscious opponent easily (like drive a dagger through his eye or something).

[darkflagrance]

If you look at the modding forum, the issue of teeth/hooves being weak has been found to be a bug that can easily be fixed (teeth/hooves are considered by the game to be of the same material as skin).

Can you give me a link?  I've been searching but I can't seem to find it.

See this thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=55798.0