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Author Topic: Echoes of Imperium (4X Strategy Game)[Not Dead]  (Read 36467 times)

Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #135 on: July 03, 2010, 05:34:05 am »

The problem with that idea is, it provides just a little bit more of strategic complexity(more terrain types per province, dependent on the direction of attack), at the cost of degrading the general map's clarity.
The terrain differences could, in my opinion, remain simplified as a generalized one terrain type-per province. It would be assumed that the defender always choses the best terrain available for defence positions anyway.

I do like the idea of converting the remaining movement points into tactical advantage on the battlefield. It could be initiative bonus, or strenght bonus - for both defender and attacker. It would represent combat preparation and entrenchment - giving a nice bonus for stationary armies garrisoning a province(all MPs unused = large bonus), as well as providing an incentive for attacking from the neighbouring province, instead of from across the map.
This could work nicely with Lap's idea of implementation of HOI's "support" orders for armies:
Let's say you're defending a bunch of provinces, you've got one strong army, and a significant area to protect(say, 10 provinces). You don't know from which direction the attack will come. What you do, is station your army in such a province as to have all the possible attack directions within your army's movement range, then set your army to "defend area", which will make it automatically confront any army entering your movement range. The farther the eventual battle will be from your starting position, the less of a "preparation bonus" you'll have(i.e.less movement points left). If there are some local defenders in the attacked province, then the reacting army would join them in battle.
I'm not sure how to handle two armies attacking your area - should the reacting defender battle just one of them, allowing the other one to penetrate? Should they try to fight one, and then the other, providing they've got enough MPs left?



Other stuff:
Re.: Senate & wormholes - I think that the Senate should only create wormholes from the original homeworld to the next closes star system, not from the newly colonized/conquered ones.
The price for creation of wormholes should increase as a square of distance - so 5 ly away = 25gp, 10 ly = 100gp etc.
This way, the Senate would sort of "start off" the players by providing connections to the neighbouring worlds, quite frequently initially, while the dynamics would shift to the player created wormholes later on, as the players will become rich enough to afford their own(or shared) investments.
The Senate would still continue to link to other words as the game progresses, albeit significantly less frequently, due to the need of amassing more contributions to reach the farther worlds.
This allows for players who'd been losing the colonial wars to still gain access to new worlds, thanks to the occassional Senate's wormhole creation.

Re.:Army reinforcments vs HQ system.
Let's allow HQs to stock any unit as either part of it's own, local, defences, or as an inert, inactive unit. This way HQs can amass units to be picked up by an army at a later point, or allow an army to exchange/drop off damaged units.
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llamavore

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #136 on: July 06, 2010, 10:29:34 am »

hm, well, you could keep the center borderlands for calculating movement but just forget about them having different terrains than the province they're in. so it would add to movement strategy but not add to terrain complexity.

as for your idea about an army defending from all invaders that move within its range, I like it. that way if you have two enemy armies invading, you could station your army closer to the stronger one and they'll get a greater preparation bonus if they engage them because they have used less move points to attack them.

but like you said, how to handle two or more armies attacking that area? I think that when you tell your army to defend the area you should be able to give them orders, to be applied when the turn commences, about which target armies to defend against and how to prioritize them:

---idea for detecting and engaging multiple enemies in one turn---
orders:

initiate recon
-(each army automatically initiates one free recon at the beginning of a turn, so this orders additional recons)
-(takes one movepoint, can be initiated multiple times until movepoints exhausted)
-(detects enemy armies in detection range)
-(factors in successful detection: terrain enemies occupy,
                                              distance they are from your army,
                                              their stealth statistics,
                                              their preparation bonus,
                                              your spotting statistics,
                                              your preparation bonus.
                                              amount of previous recons from this spot, this turn, by any friendly unit)

note: if that's too complicated, recon can simply stay automated, with detected armies displayed at the beginning of the turn, based on above factors.

select pursuit range
-(0 to highest move point number, not including used move points)
-(this is how far your army will leave its station to engage; 0 means they will only defend their station)

select targets from detected armies
-(untargeted enemies will only be engaged if they directly attack this army)
-(selecting no targets allows support mode or evasion mode)

select support objective
-(may select a single point on the map, within pursuit range)
-(if empty, will ambush any -detected- enemy that moves there. ambushes cannot be evaded)
-(if occupied by friendly or enemy, will join any battle that occurs there)
-(canceled if a target is selected)

prioritize targets
-(primary, secondary, tertiary, up to as many movepoints as your army has)
-(targets will be engaged sequentially based on priority)
-(movepoints are used on the way to each target; distance from army to primary target, then distance from primary to second target, etc. this effects preparation bonuses for each battle. if the next target on the list is beyond the remaining movepoints, your army will use the remainder to approach that target. all targets in range, which are given orders to move in the following turn, will attempt to evade when engaged)
-(unprioritized targets will be attacked after any prioritized targets, from nearest to farthest)

plot movement
-(select a destination; automatically picks shortest route, destination marked as 'nav alpha')
-(selecting multiple destinations plots them as waypoints; nav alpha, nav beta, etc.)
-(if your army is detected, targeted, and is within the pursuit range of the enemy that has targeted it, it will be engaged; if it is engaged while executing a movement, whether it is just starting the movement or is en route, your army will attempt to evade)
-(evasion will only succeed if at the point of engagement, your army has more preparation bonus than the enemy army)
-(if you win or evade the engagement, remaining movepoints will be used to continue along the plotted route)

this concept works whether each province counts as one movespace, or if each one has a center and multiple borderlands so it is 3 movespaces across. the one terrain type of a province would still effect the rate at which you use movepoints to cross it or move around in it.

---another terrain idea---
now as for handling terrain as One-Type-Per-Province;

each province is within one Terrain Region, like Amazonian Jungle(AJ), or American Great Plains(AGP), or Mongolian Steppes(MS).

each Terrain Region has 3 types of Regional Features that apply to all provinces in that Region; Topography, Climate, and Ecology. example:

Topography Feature:
AJ - Coastal River Basin, minor movement bonus, major trade bonus
AGP - Flatlands, good movement bonus, minor trade bonus, major defense penalty
AS - Flatlands, (same as above)

Climate Feature:
AJ - Tropical Coastal: minor movement penalty, good agricultural bonus, good exotic bonus
AGP - Humid Continental: major agricultural bonus
MS - Arid Continental: weather disaster risk modifier (weaker), slight agricultural penalty

Ecology Feature: (encompasses only natural ecology, not human effects on ecology)
AJ - Jungle: major movement penalty, disease disaster risk modifier (stronger), good defense bonus
AGP - Grasslands: wind power bonus
MS - Grasslands: (same as above)

these features do not account for cities or human effects like nuked wastes or terraforming; so here are some more types of features that do. they are not Regional; they could vary from province to province regardless of regionality.

Development Feature: (encompasses urbanization/civilization/wilderness)
AJ - 3rd World Rural: minor movement bonus, minor agricultural bonus
AGP - 1st World Rural: major movement bonus, major agricultural bonus
MS - 3rd World Nomadic: minor attack bonus (bonus from attacking from this area), minor defense penalty

Special Feature(s): (can be more than one per province, encompasses human effects and other sidenotes)
AJ - Jungle Clearing - bad exotic penalty, disease disaster risk modifier (weaker)
    - Flood Risk - weather disaster risk modifier (stronger)
AGP - Water Table Pollution - minor population penalty, pollution disaster risk modifier (stronger)
      - Water Table Depletion - minor maintenance penalty, drought disaster risk modifier (stronger)
      - Major Freight Connections - good trade bonus
      - Tornado Risk - weather disaster risk modifier (stronger)
MS - None, lol mongolia.

(end example.) a province would also have its basic statistics, like population, technology, various resource levels, and so on. there may be units, buildings, projects, and policies that can change existing features or add special ones.

this way of organizing terrain by Region simplifies things because if you're in a region and you see someone else in the same region you know they have a lot of the same bonuses and penalties.

Further simplicity: different Terrain Regions can have some of the same Regional Features, as implied by the region names (Mongolian Steppes sounds like it would have some things in common with Russian Steppes, American Great Plains, or African Savannah; same with Amazonian Jungle and Congo Jungle, or Rocky Mountains and Andes Mountains).

also, if this seems like too many types of features (topography, climate, ecology, development, and specials) it can be just topography and climate (regional), and development(local). the basic sum of bonuses and penalties should be displayed, and there can be little popups, advisors, and gamepedia entries that say 'this Terrain Region is useful for blah blah and useless for blah blah, such and such other provinces are in this Region, this Region is similar to these other Regions.' This way a new player can use Terrain Regions effectively even while they're still unfamiliar with them.

---disaster idea (terrain related)---

I dont know if the idea of disasters has been introduced; but since I mentioned disaster risk modifiers, I think stronger risks will just = population penalties because no one wants to live/work/invest in disaster prone areas. on top of that, if there were actual disaster events in the game (for say, certain provinces, or all provinces of a certain Region) then the risk modifiers could do the obvious by increasing or decreasing the risk that those events will occur in that Region.

I think the base modifier for these different risks should come from the planet's statistics, which would include things like, weather intensity (weather disasters), chemical toxicity (pollution disasters), abundance of water (drought disasters), geological activity (earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, aka geo disasters). of course all these statistics can be relevant without actually implementing 'disaster events' in the game; you just assign the risks through features and those features effect population in a province.

Note that the Region Terrains are not balanced to make all of them equally useful. This will probably give them unique roles and uses in geopolitics (even the useless ones). Heavily terraformed planets may have more balanced region terrains since the terraformers may have designed them as such, for instance, a byzantium 2 type planet where everyone has a representational province might have terrraformed, balanced Region Terrains as such, but naturally occuring Regions and even Planets are not likely to all be 'balanced.' if you want to make starting play 'balanced' for beginners, just give them a combination of provinces that add up to a good balance.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 03:52:27 pm by llamavore »
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Lap

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #137 on: July 13, 2010, 06:28:31 am »

I have not posted for some time as I started work a couple of weeks ago. The game's progress has been crawling along at a snail's pace. I have to run off to work again in a couple hours so I need to keep this short.

The Senate Guard idea is pretty close to the original EFS idea I was falling back on so there's not much new there. The problem is making them attack intelligently. AI is a bitch so we'll see how that goes.

Adding border regions sounds very scary to me. There's a big potential that it could bog down the game and make maps visually and technically a lot more complicated.

As I currently have it coded, troops with additional movement points get a bonus to initiative based on how much they have left, but that is it. I'll play around with the net effect on the game later.

The way recon currently works is similar to how you've described, but I have it as automated. Still undecided how complicated I want the orders to be.

Terrains- I don't know if I should have a tropical coast terrain type or if the region would just have the jungle and coastal tokens. I don't think I'll be using movement penalties or bonuses as I'm trying to keep most ground movement to one or two a turn anyways. As most other things, not set in stone.

Disasters - The special event system I have coded in can handle absolutely everything. It can assign different risks based on terrain types, planets, factions, and just about anything else. The events themselves can be almost anything. You could make something as simple as you lose 50 gold to three random planets explode and rain monkeys on all other planets. A modder could make any type of event you cant think of.

Region Balance - I'm not really aiming at trying to balance all the provinces since it's impossible to balance these things without making the maps symmetrical anyways. Even if I did theoretically balance the provinces, certain types would still be in greater demand at different phases of the game.

Current Progress:

-Converted combat code to something more easily modifiable.
-Got faction relations to determine when combat happens when moving armies.
-Continued working on the interactions between combat and transferring the combat results back to the game world and players.
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Lap

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #138 on: July 27, 2010, 01:52:11 am »

Starports and docks/naval yards are implemented and they work great. Resources can now be shared to other connected naval yards on planets and connections can also extend to other other planets.

I've also been experimenting with different methods of producing units trying to balance the need for less micro while not having magical instantly appearing armies.

I'm trying to consider using the hearts of iron deployment system. Here's how it would work here.

-Any factories produce units using pretty much any method previously discussed.
-Completed units go into a deployment pool.
-On the next turn players must place these units in a connected province.
-Units placed are affected by some sort of penalty on their first turn to discourage throwing them right in front of an enemy.

Downsides to this are that it might still allow a bit too much freedom of placement, but as with a lot of things, I'm wasting too much time here being indecisive about production.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #139 on: July 27, 2010, 05:49:15 am »

I'm glad to see that your mundane distracrions(like a job) failed to stop the development.

Anyway, is this deployment system going to work on a planet-by-planet basis, or will it span the whole galaxy, across the supply chain?
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Lap

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #140 on: July 27, 2010, 12:19:05 pm »

I currently have it set up so that resources can be shared to other connected planets, but that unit production can't.

I went out of my way to make the code for each entirely separate despite how similar they are. In this way I can turn off planet connections and/or naval connections with a simple line of code. We'll see how it goes.
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maxicaxi

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #141 on: August 07, 2010, 02:56:34 am »

When will you cook up a playable alpha?

I want to to try this.
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Lap

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #142 on: August 07, 2010, 12:01:14 pm »

I am literally wasting hours on end just trying to make decisions and not actually coding, which is pissing me off.  Most of the time I spent when I keep going back and forth on a system for unit recruitment/production.

I'm also trying to decide if I should allow ocean provinces to be "conquered" or if they should always be neutral.

I don't know how much fun you'd be having with the first actual release. First actual release will probably just include:

-Earth and maybe one other planet.
-No AI
-Few units
-No GUI themes/limited GUI
-Limited or no tech trees

And I'm sure lacking in a lot of departments. Basically, you'd be able to see how building, harvesting and moving worked as well as being able to make your own units and stuff if you are willing to do some tinkering.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #143 on: August 07, 2010, 12:11:28 pm »

I am literally wasting hours on end just trying to make decisions and not actually coding, which is pissing me off.  Most of the time I spent when I keep going back and forth on a system for unit recruitment/production.
Post your dillemas here. That's one of the few things we can help you with.
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Lap

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #144 on: August 07, 2010, 12:59:04 pm »

Well, the main reason I haven't been posting is that we've done this dance so many times with production ideas. Maybe just reorganizing the different ideas will help clear my head. In no order:

Idea #1
-------

*One unit is produced per factory and when construction STARTS the player can assign it's destination, where it will appear on completion.
*Each factory either can produce a unit type or it can't. If it can, it takes a fixed amount of turns.

-Dilemmas when losing the factory or destination. Allowing another target province when the original is conquered could lead to a strategy of targeting soon to be lost provinces so that you can have more flexibility in placement. Losing the target province and losing all production sees too harsh.
-How far from the factory can the target province be?

Idea #2
--------

*Factories build as in idea #1, but target destinations can only be regions that contain some HQ/staging ground type building.

Idea #3
-------

*Industrial complexes provide production points.
*Factories can use the production points from nearby industrial complexes to create units. These units spawn at the factory's region.

Idea #4
--------

*Same idea as #3, but units that are created are put into a deployment pool.
*Units in the deployment pool MUST be deployed into a nearby friendly province, ending it's "turn".
*Any combat the unit is involved in on this first deployed turn it does so with a large penalty,


==================

So from what it looks like there's two separate questions here:

IC based production or slot based production?

Should created units be sent to a deployment pool, a previously targeted region, or a previously targeted staging ground-type building?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 01:02:12 pm by Lap »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #145 on: August 07, 2010, 01:09:12 pm »

Take idea 3#, rename "industrial complex" to "factory", and "factory" to "HQ/staging point", and it's all good by me.

I'd also rather use IC based production, as it gives more flexibility towards implementing effects like war weariness or province damage. And it's really actually easier to grasp for a player, when the number of factories increase.

The player should choose the staging point, which should provide him with the production screen, with IC available based on the provincial idustry(factories built).



Obviously we've already talked this over, but I don't see what do you think is not right with this system.
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Lap

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #146 on: August 07, 2010, 03:24:28 pm »

When the staging ground is destroyed/captured/whatever, what should happen?
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #147 on: August 07, 2010, 08:01:34 pm »

I think it'd be ok to let all the production dissapear in that case. The players will be naturally sensitive to such possibility, fortifying the staging point as they see fit.
This should also provide some focal points for planetary wars, which is good, I think.
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Lap

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #148 on: August 12, 2010, 11:07:42 pm »

Looks like I've got the basic production done server side. I'm trying to figure out if I should make an internal list of all buildings in existence.

Currently, buildings only exist as a little table inside of a region and the only way to find all the buildings in the game is to go through every region and catalog them.

However, I wonder if I should make a list of all buildings in existence to support future features I'm not thinking of. Hmmmmm....
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Lap

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #149 on: August 15, 2010, 03:53:06 am »

Since I didn't feel like working more on the production AI I got to thinking about how the galactic market/trade guild should work. Since these are simultaneous turns it's a bit tricky.

In all ideas:

1. The traders have limited supplies of resources.
2. Galactic supply and demand will affect prices and actual supplies.

For illustration, we'll look at the situation where on the same turn everyone tries buying out all the available antimatter on the market (100).


Idea A: 'Private' Markets

- Each player is essentially shown the maximum THEY can purchase.
- All players can request to buy any/all of the available resources and they are guaranteed to receive it no matter what. If the market says there is 100 antimatter for sale and 10 people all buy it, 1000 antimatter is actually distributed.
-Next, turn prices and available resources will be updated based on galactic supply/demand

Idea B: Round-Robin

-Once requests are received, the game randomly starts selling lots of 10 or so antimatter to players in a round robin fashion.
-When 100 total antimatter is given out, no more is given.

Idea C: Bidding - Highest transaction first

-Each player can set the price per unit (above or equal to the base price) for the antimatter.
-The game finds out who has the highest bid and completes their transaction first.
-If there are any available resources left it tries to fulfill the next highest bid.

Itea D: Bidding - Unit price changes

-All players specify the desired amount of resources they want to purchase along with a maximum amount of money they are willing to spend.
-The game looks at all requests and figures out that there is only a tenth of the needed antimatter and it raises the unit price to (total of all credits offered / # of resource)
-In this case, everyone ends up paying way more than they expected, for a lot less, but at least it's fair.

The first option is the only one that can have players buy and receive the goods on the same turn. It's also the only one that guarantees players will know exactly what they are getting and for how much.

I'm currently thinking between A and C, but I'd love to hear comments and other ideas.
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