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[Orkel]

Now that skeletals are fixed in .03, you should release a version of this overhaul with them back in.

[Master]

Blunt weapons are still very very slow killers, only killing if you drive a rib into the lungs or heart, skull into the brain, bone through an artery, etc.  Which is realistic, since that's how blunt weapons kill people in real life, too.

Here's the file.  http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2062

You should think about starting a new thread with your mod info in the first post so that it is easier to find. It seems a little different than the OP even though along the same lines. Or maybe put the link in your signature?

[shadowclasper]

This is obsolete now isn't it? Since undead are killable again on 31.3?

[dennislp3]

This is obsolete now isn't it? Since undead are killable again on 31.3?

Yes and no....the combat balance is still working...but now it unnecessarily takes out undead (although that is no ones fault...just needs updated)....I would switch over to Arrkhals balance for now if you still want undead...his affects materials and stuff but I dont think it takes undead out

[Mephansteras]

Has anyone done any comparisons between Arrkhal's balance mod and the community one?

[dennislp3]

Has anyone done any comparisons between Arrkhal's balance mod and the community one?

not that I know of and I keep failing to find a time to do it some myself. The one test I did with Arrkhals mod (while not super empirical or anything) did seem to show that it does solve the "fight til they collapse" issues.

I gave lots of dwarfs full iron armor and a sword (plus shield) all without any skills...did lots of one on one matches (bout 8 ) then made a moshpit

overall...at least with iron stuff (armor and swords) it has brought it back towards the speed of the old combat system. there were some occasional limbs being lopped off (despite full armor) but not so much so that it ruined anything...

so whats this all mean? I guess its me saying that Arrkhals mod does help alleviate the completely unbalanced system issues to a point where it seems very playable compared to what it is now.

I also did some (although less) testing with the community mod and found it helps tons to although I don't really remember the results to well

I personally prefer Arrkhals mod because it seems to deal with the base issues (materials) while community seems to focus on what what is there (eg weapons and armor) and tweaking it to work...but I could be off...correct me if I am wrong

[Arrkhal]

I really wouldn't consider my mod to be a competing thing or anything.  This thread is about a community rebalance, after all.

The thing with certain armor/weapon combos may continue to be a problem, though, as the game engine itself is currently set so that it's very hard to go through X material armor with an X material weapon.

On the other hand, that's actually somewhat realistic, as no one in their right mind would wear 60 pounds of crap (which also cost a small fortune) if it didn't stop the majority of attacks.  And on the other other hand, blunt weapons can now break bones through armor.

I still need to test the crap out of this thing, though.

[dennislp3]

I really wouldn't consider my mod to be a competing thing or anything.  This thread is about a community rebalance, after all.

The thing with certain armor/weapon combos may continue to be a problem, though, as the game engine itself is currently set so that it's very hard to go through X material armor with an X material weapon.

On the other hand, that's actually somewhat realistic, as no one in their right mind would wear 60 pounds of crap (which also cost a small fortune) if it didn't stop the majority of attacks.  And on the other other hand, blunt weapons can now break bones through armor.

I still need to test the crap out of this thing, though.

I certainly dont consider them to be competing...I just know that yours overwrites some of the stuff the community balance covers...and since they tackle the same issue from different angles I just figure that having them merged would have a huge overcompensating effect...perhaps I am wrong I have not tested it...I spose for me the overwriting issue is my thing...I hate overwriting stuff >.< (without knowing the end effects)

[Arrkhal]

Huh, finally figured out why organ damage has been eluding me.  50,000 elasticity is a "magic" number.  At 50,000 elasticity and up, blunt trauma will never tear a tissue, while at 49,999 and down, realistic values for muscle (unless I did some math wrong or something) result in it getting "torn apart" by every punch.

So I guess I'm going to, for now, set elasticity for most tissues to about 40,000, then try and figure out strength values that result in realistic behavior.

Edit: or not.  It requires completely ridiculous values.  I guess I see now why impact used to be 10x the other values.  Now I need to test and make sure fists aren't doing damage through plate armor.

Edit again:  Awesome.  Fists bounce off iron plate armor.  Iron war hammers, despite doing a piercing attack, bruise enemies through armor!  So it appears that all is well on that front.  I may experiment with low-elasticity skin and organs again later, then.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

the link on your sig is broken, arrkhal

[Arrkhal]

Yep, me dumb.  Me fixed it.  Also uploaded version 0.3, which fixed some dumb mistakes, and also makes elves able to actually kill things now (rarely).  Although anything with scales is immune to sharp wooden weapons.

[dennislp3]

Thanks for the update im gonna do some simple testing right now with the new arrows and animals and stuff

[Box]

If you guys want the original community mod without the undead being removed, copy items_ammo, items_weapon over from objects.rar, and in the original raw files in your 31.03 directory (with only new files changed items_ammo and items_weapon), and tone down the colossus size to 15000000 ([BODY_SIZE:0:0:15000000]).


The differences, otherwise, that you have from just copying everything else over:
- Tiles different (changed in new version of DF)
- Apostrophes messed up
- Blind cave bears have eyes and sight
- Minotaur thing messed up
- Child names messed up
- Alligator eyehair
- GCS have blunt fangs
- And of course, no undead!

Those don't need to be changed.  They're actually reverted to broken .01 states if you use the old raws in the current download of the community overhaul.


To reiterate:
1. Copy item_ammo.txt from overhaul to DF2010 31.03
2. Copy item_weapon.txt from overhaul to DF2010 31.03
3. Open creature_standard.txt and change [BODY_SIZE:0:0:20000000] to [BODY_SIZE:0:0:15000000] for Bronze Colossi.

That will keep all the good raw changes .03 made while overhauling the weapons properly (and nerfing the colossus).


For those using Arrkhal's mod:  Keep on truckin'.

 


EDIT:

Hey Arrkhal, do you mind keeping an up-to-date changelog (perhaps on the download site) that details what is changed, especially from version-to-version?  It's nice to have that data on-hand and some people mind find it interesting.  Important stuff that could be useful that you find would be great to keep on hand, perhaps on the wiki or for future modding, or if maybe people want to fiddle around on their own....


>_>

<_<

[Tinker Thinker]

I am actually a big fan of the "structural integrity = blood" thing for colossi. I don't know how to go about it, though. I don't want to see "bronze colossus is bleeding heavily!" or whatever messages, though if that can't be helped so be it.

I think the structural integrity thing makes a great deal of sense for material creatures though, especially acting somewhat like blood. You rip open a section of a material creature. Every time that area shifts, or pressure is applied in that region, the simple fact of that wound's existence makes it worse, due to warping, cracks, spreading, etc. (especially since creatures of this sort wouldn't heal) When it comes to joints, this is an even more rapid degradation.  They can be counted as functionally dead when they can no longer actually attack due to complete compromise of structural integrity (Bled out).

[RysanMarquise]

Blood doesnt work as structural integrity for a system as simple as a bronze collousous. Without proper tissue properties, the blood will all just leak out of a foot when you hit it. Additionally, the blood can be load-bearing, but it is just a liquid so the limbs will fall off when tapped if you rely only on it.


On to better news: I found out how to make maces work!

Damage for blunt weapons is largely a function of their size and velocity. By increasing the SIZE by 50-100 points, the weapon becomes vastly more effective in combat. In testing a squad of 5 master macedwarves in full plate beat 5 master axedwarves, unless the axes were sufficiently awesome. Additionally the maces have their own set of materials for improvement, but I did not test those beyond the fact that a slade mace with wreck you.