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[LegoLord]

Why are people convinced that this forces people to buy healthcare they can't afford?  It doesn't do that.  It makes it affordable to people who would otherwise be unable to afford it.

To those worried about the debt:  We've got plenty of insanely rich people not really paying all that much in the way of taxes, relative to the lesser rich and the lower classes.  I bet they could give the government a lot of money and still keep living the same lavish lifestyle.  Not to mention other costly programs that are less helpful, and the spending of government money on fancy new school stadiums when it should be spent on the schools lacking learning resources.  I'm sure there are plenty of places where costs can be cut without letting the privatized healthcare system run rampant.

The fact that people can go bankrupt even with insurance still strikes me as wrong, so I'd rather have the government do something about it than nothing, thank you.

[dreiche2]

Not even to mention, people are going to care less about their health and what they eat.  They have health insurance!  That's what it's for!

Americans eating even less healthily?

Giving 35 million people another bill is not worth it.  Especially if they are a healthy family living a healthy life and put back money of their own for emergencies.  It's a game of screw the man that saves and plans to feed the man that spends $20k on fancy new rims for his car and a shiny new big screen.  (and no, that's not racist... I know plenty of people of all races that do this...)

Do you have any idea how expensive medical treatment can be? A normal person cannot put back money for such an emergency. And it's not just a matter of healthy living. You can't plan not to get hit by a car.

Every state mandates that you buy auto insurance, [...]

Fascism!

Anyways, What Cthulhu said. Nothing is ever free. We might not pay in 5 years, we might not pay in 20. But somewhere down the line, those 45 trillion dollars of debt will have to be paid off.

You guys already have the most expensive healthcare in the world, and no, it's not because it's the best (haha). It's because it's inefficient as hell.

People didn't die before... hospitals won't turn you away for an illness if they can give you life saving treatments.  They may turn you away if you come in with a cold or other non-threatening illness, but if you're arm is broken, bleeding or missing they weren't going to ask for money up front and only treat you if you had insurance.

And who's paying for that emergency treatment?

That's exactly one of the reasons why your system is so inefficient. People will get treated anyway at some point, even when they weren't insured, having never paid in. And then, end up bankrupt:

Medical debt is an especially notable phenomenon in the United States - the US being the world's only developed country not to offer universal health care. In less developed nations those on low income in need of treatment will often avail themselves of what ever help they can from either the state or NGOs without going into debt, but in the US medical debt has been found by a 2009 study to be the primary cause of personal bankruptcy.

I'm already spending far too much time in discussions lately, so I won't go on explaining your own healthcare issues to you Americans.

But from what I have seen, it's really quite sad. You guys are getting screwed by your own system, and you don't know it, or you ignore it because of ideological issues. Millions of people uninsured. And even those who are insured often go bankrupt because of copay. You guys get milked by insurance companies and blinded by political propaganda. Again, every other developed country has some form of universal healthcare!

So that will be my last contribution in this thread. If you want to hear personal stories about experiences of foreign healthcare systems, I recommend this thread (yes it's SA, but it's a good read). Also, the guys at the Cracked forum have a some good threads going, e.g. here, where I saw a lot of the issues being brought up here addressed. I would say that a lot of people on that forum are moderate conservatives, btw.

Good luck!

[Aqizzar]

Why are people convinced that this forces people to buy healthcare they can't afford?  It doesn't do that.  It makes it affordable to people who would otherwise be unable to afford it.

I don't know how you can understand it that way.  There are no private insurance price ceilings or cost controls.  There is no publicly funded healthcare alternative.  Ergo, your only option if you don't have employer-pool insurance is to buy your own private insurance, at whatever price the utterly regional and stupidly oligarchic market will set.

[Leafsnail]

Nothing is free.

Free at the point of delivery then?

Ha! Like every other promise he's made good on.

Anyways, What Cthulhu said. Nothing is ever free. We might not pay in 5 years, we might not pay in 20. But somewhere down the line, those 45 trillion dollars of debt will have to be paid off.

Yep, America is in a much worse financial state than Iraq, the Ukraine and Cuba.

People didn't die before... hospitals won't turn you away for an illness if they can give you life saving treatments.  They may turn you away if you come in with a cold or other non-threatening illness, but if you're arm is broken, bleeding or missing they weren't going to ask for money up front and only treat you if you had insurance.

It's a wasteful way of doing things do.  Rather than giving someone a (relatively very cheap) course of preventative medicine for some illnesses, the hospitals instead have to deal with someone in casualty a few months later.

But it seems that this bill (and, by extension, the American people) has been completely fucked over by corporate interests (specifically, from insurance companies).  Quite frankly it'd be better to introduce a proper healthcare system and reimburse the health insurance companies for what they'd lose.

[LegoLord]

There are no private insurance price ceilings or cost controls.

Only if no one makes such things.  I see no reason why it can't be done.

[Aqizzar]

There are no private insurance price ceilings or cost controls.

Only if no one makes such things.  I see no reason why it can't be done.

In case you haven't been keeping up, it took four tries over forty five years just to get this bundle of private-purchase-mandate with the preexisting condition clause.  How many decades do you think it'll take before Congress makes a law telling any industry how much it can charge people, let alone the second-biggest contributing industry of campaign funding?

[sonerohi]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For those who are just tuning in from 20 years in the past, here is both the long and short of it: Comparing America to a ship in the middle of naval combat is very apt. Holes are being punched all over, pieces are being welded over them haphazardly, the captain is trying to bail it out, and there are a lot of boarders from other country's ships.

Ba-dum-tish.

[LegoLord]

let alone the second-biggest contributing industry of campaign funding?

Doesn't that strike you as . . . wrong?

[Aqizzar]

let alone the second-biggest contributing industry of campaign funding?

Doesn't that strike you as . . . wrong?

Sure it's wrong in principles.  Yet, it doesn't strike you as true?  Wishing it wasn't so doesn't speed up legislative evolution.

[Servant Corps]

There are no private insurance price ceilings or cost controls.

As it should. We have to protect the free market.

EDIT: Oh, and don't overestimate the power of money in government. There are some studies that say it matters less than you think.

[Cthulhu]

Money, in my government?

It matters less than you think.

[Heron TSG]

I KNOW we aren't 45 trillion in debt. It's...


Also, this measure will stop the 'You're sick, go die without insurance!' thing that's been going on. We're on the road to good healthcare now.

[Phmcw]

What strike me is that most of the critics of the health-care bill would be solved by a more socialist health-care bill. Well, in this case, the bill is not perfect but it's a start. And, initially, there was supposed to be government funded health-care, but it has to be watered, so shame to the right for it.
And if you wonder, people going more to the doctor are less expensive.
A lot of illness are benign if treated soon enough, and that's not even talking about prevention.
Not speaking of course about American's stupid eating habits, and overly fat food that should both been looked at by any responsible government. 

Oh, yes the debt, well if you use a little bit of common sense, you would realize that maybe, just maybe, it's how the things have been going UNTIL NOW that are wrong and health care cost less than war, and actually bring something back to you.

[Andir]

People didn't die before... hospitals won't turn you away for an illness if they can give you life saving treatments.  They may turn you away if you come in with a cold or other non-threatening illness, but if you're arm is broken, bleeding or missing they weren't going to ask for money up front and only treat you if you had insurance.

And who's paying for that emergency treatment?

That's exactly one of the reasons why your system is so inefficient. People will get treated anyway at some point, even when they weren't insured, having never paid in. And then, end up bankrupt:

Oh, trust me, I know this, and I understand it... better than you can imagine.

It makes it affordable to people who would otherwise be unable to afford it.

It does virtually nothing to reduce the costs except make everyone pay...  you can argue that that alone will bring down the costs, but that would be cancelled out by the fact that everyone's premiums WILL be going up because they will be forced to give very expensive treatment to those that didn't have it before.  Sure, more people will have access to it, but that's not going to drive costs down.  It's going to inflate costs and we'll continue to feed money into it from places where we have no money.  Just like social security and other government programs.  They always run out of money.

If we weren't out patrolling the world like some global police force and concentrated on national defence and populace it might work, but we'd have to contract the military and global aid spending quite excessively.  Doing that would gain a short term appreciation from countries around the world, but the first time someone was attacked and we were asked to assist we'd end up in another situation of military expansion and politicians would be screaming for more money and programs all over again.  We'd literally have to leave countries defenceless and the dictators and tyrants would begin their expansion.  Right or wrong, we've managed to keep conflicts at a minimum through military might, but it's fiscally killing us.

[Euld]

*position of supplication*
O great Barbarossa the Seal God, wherest didst thou findst thine redst $12 trillionst debtst numberst?