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[MrWiggles]

That, I disagree with. It statical distributions are done well. The range could be increase to make the extreme outcome more unlikly. It may do other things well, I'm not sure yet. I havent really began to read it yet.

Task #1: How do the statistical distributions improve gameplay in some way that cannot be done faster, simpler, easier and move effectively using a different and less anal system?

Or, as i like to call it; the Rule of Reduction. Can we do the same thing with less? Is this even neccessary in the first place? (The answers are Yes and No respectively).

Your point was that FATAL doesn't do anything well. I counter it. Proper implementation, it may fail at every turn. I'm not sure yet.

As for it being nessicary, in what *I* think FATAL is trying to do, then yes it is. Could it be abstracted to give similar results. Sure. FATAL isn't trying to give 'good enough', its trying to give 100 percent accuracy. A retarded goal for table top systems, in general. If it could be ran on a backburner where the time it takes to such tedious die rolling, it maybe pretty cool.

Someone said they had the FATAL character generator. Do you like it having you make characters? Does it give a good varity of characters?

[MrWiggles]

Here's a question though: Why do you need tables to generate a varied and diverse population?

Unless the PC's intend to fight the NPC's, they do not need to be statted. Why waste time generating such NPC's? This is the hurdle at which most NPC generators fall over; they assume that for some strange reason the DM will want to build an entire statblock for every person in a city.

In reality, a city is an environment, only NPC's that the PC's directly fight need to be statted, everyone else can run on narrative.

There nothing wrong with this statement. It however boils down to what you like to do with your NPCs. Its not wrong to stat every NPC that the PC may interact with. In fact, this is a key selling point to Fuaran setting for dNd.

I tend to play this way when I run games. The only NPC with stats are one that will need them to deal with the PCs, and any NPC I find cool that I want to find more about.

[Neruz]

Your point was that FATAL doesn't do anything well. I counter it. Proper implementation, it may fail at every turn. I'm not sure yet.

No, my point was that it has no redeeming characteristics. Some of the gameplay aspects are alright, but they do not redeem the product as a whole.

As for it being nessicary, in what *I* think FATAL is trying to do, then yes it is. Could it be abstracted to give similar results. Sure. FATAL isn't trying to give 'good enough', its trying to give 100 percent accuracy. A retarded goal for table top systems, in general. If it could be ran on a backburner where the time it takes to such tedious die rolling, it maybe pretty cool.

Yes.

There nothing wrong with this statement. It however boils down to what you like to do with your NPCs. Its not wrong to stat every NPC that the PC may interact with. In fact, this is a key selling point to Fuaran setting for dNd.

I tend to play this way when I run games. The only NPC with stats are one that will need them to deal with the PCs, and any NPC I find cool that I want to find more about.

There is no 'wrong' way to play pen and paper RPG's, but there are more efficient and less efficient ways, and statting out useless NPC's is about as inefficient as it gets.

It's also entirely unneccessary, as if the DM really wants to stat them out that much, he will stat them out himself anyway. If they're important enough to the DM he's not going to use a random generator to get those stats, random generators are for things you don't care about, and if you don't care about the NPC's then why are you statting them.


It's interesting to note that this philosphy of PnP RPG design (don't stat shit that's not important) has started to become more and more dominant lately, with 4e being the heavy hitter adopting this stance and dragging alot of other systems along behind it (those that weren't already doing it).

While you will find the occasional DM who says they like statting out every single NPC in a city, you'll almost never find one who agrees this is the best way to play the game or that anyone should play that way unless they really want to.

[MrWiggles]

See, I slack off. Unless I need or want a special trick with an NPC, I randomly generate them the one that need stats, including names and appears if possible and applicable.

Also, 4e dNd, is not that bad of a system. I wouldn't use it though. I like crunch in my RP systems when I play them. However, it is the system I would use to introduce new players to the hobby. It has all the standard gameplay mechanics you'll find in most RP systems but presented in a very digestible way.

I also love how the combat forces you to move around the board more.

[Neruz]

But why do they need stats? If they're fighting the PC's, then you're much better off using a base template type and applying minor cosmetic changes to each one.

Randomly generating names and appearances is a good thing, that i will agree with you on.

I like crunch in my RP systems when I play them.

Why? This has always intregued me.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Me, I don't see FATAL as much of a PnP game. A recreation variant I named LETHAL stands for Logistical Evisceration Through Horrendous Algebraic Loquaciousness, and it does just that. It can be a PnPC game, requiring computer assistance to GM. The players can use just their sheets, but the GM can use a tracker application, allowing to stat out PCs and NPCs alike, to varying degrees. In FATAL LETHAL Tracker, you would have a database of required parameters. If you have a combat-oriented story, you won't need three quarters of the parameters on the massive list that goes into ludicrous anatomic detail, at least at initial PC generation. If a PC, however, decides to apply diplomacy or, ahem, "other" diplomacy on an NPC, the Tracker would immediately tell you how many and what kind of rolls you'll need to make to establish the needed stats for the PC and NPC, including all secondary stats that impact the primary required ones. Attempting to play LETHAL without a Tracker would equate to a logistical evisceration of yourself, since you'd have to track everything manually. Hence the name.

Anyway.

Anybody up for remaking FATAL into a playable state? I've had some other interesting ideas...

[Leafsnail]

If we want to see the true purpose of FATAL, why not just look at the original title "Fantasy Adventure To Adult Lechery"?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Hehe, yes. But we're not interested in that. LETHAL would keep FATAL's anatomic detail, but would be far more diverse in the other departments, so as to keep the focus away from them. There would still be the possibilities - but they wouldn't be emphasized. It would also ditch the whole "historic accuracy" thing and go with "whatever plays out best". Might even make it a nanopunk setting.

[Neruz]

FATAL would function substantially better in a virtual environment; that is to say, at all. But there are still more than a few major shortcomings of the system, not the least of which being the sheer amount of information players have to hold onto.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Well, if it's computer-assisted, might as well keep the detailed charsheets in electronic form, with the players holding onto only the most frequently used information. For example, you wouldn't really want anyone seeing you got orifice sizes on your sheet, if they for some reason were required during the game.

[Grakelin]

Has anyone here actually looked at the spell list?

This alone indicates why the game is bad.

[MrWiggles]

Has anyone here actually looked at the spell list?

This alone indicates why the game is bad.

Most of them are 'What they say on the tin.'

Some of them are clever, some are flowery.

We can keep Have Her Cadaver, and turn it into a neat spell.

Lets call it 'Juliet False Resurrection'.

And we can turn the spell away from its sexual compenent into a creative illusion spell to hide nefarious actions.

[Sean Mirrsen]

It's not quite that wrong, anyway. Magic has stupendous Power Perversion Potential, so some bored magicians could easily come up with a plethora of such distinctively oriented spells. Like most applications of Mundade Utility Superpowers though, these can usually be used for other purposes as well, and that FATAL doesn't provide any option but the perverse one is just the author's obsession with the "feature". To be fair to the author, the Fatal spell doesn't cause the entire world's population to be raped by a billion extradimensional alien tentacles before being killed, when it quite certainly could.

[sproingie]

GURPS the system is kind of meh.  It has only four base stats (strength, dexterity, intelligence, and health) which is not a *bad* split, but it has little concept of specializing them other than through a fairly hodgepodge system of skills and advantages/disadvantages.  I say hodgepodge because while there are _hundreds_ of these skills and traits, with various worldbooks adding more, their quality is very uneven.  The system itself is 3d6 based, which I actually like -- nice bell curve without ridiculous amounts of dice, but unfortunately resolving many actions can involve ridiculous numbers of _rolls_.  Combat is especially egregious with this, where combat rounds are one *second* long.  I'm told 4e has streamlined this somewhat, I'm speaking only from my knowledge of 3e (I started doing GURPS just before 2E was printed.  Fond memories).

What GURPS mechanics are good for in my opinion is providing a mostly "normalized" system for incorporating all kinds of different worlds into; by normalized, I mean you get a good idea of how much a certain skill or advantage might be worth relative to others, based on their CP value.  With its single 3d6 scale, you even stand a pretty good chance of modeling them mathematically if you're so inclined.

What GURPS is great for is the quantity and technical quality of its "worldbooks". None of them provide a compelling background story anywhere, just a technical treatment of the genre that you can paint your mythology or history over.  Gurps Space is a definitive study of all the different approaches you can get for Sci-Fi, and has an awesome solar system generation system based on actual scientific models (where the distribution of rocky planets, asteroid belts, gas giants would be based on stellar mass, etc).  Gurps Magic is by itself extremely bland, but provides a fun toolkit for different magic systems, including things like rune engraving and casting or improvised cantrips.

[Grakelin]

Okay, another direction this can go in:

Do we really want Bay12 to be known as the forum where they tried to make FATAL work?