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Author Topic: Stonehall Alliance - Experimental DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod  (Read 17170 times)

NW_Kohaku

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I have an initial version out now.

It's all fairly shallow right now, I need to go back and rework the bodies and add in the rest of the cultures, but this is enough to throw out, and see how people like the creatures.

Comes with a tileset and basically an entire raw folder because I put in so many tweaks that I'm not up for sorting out right now.



Call it a little too much exposure to D&D growing up, but I've grown bored with "just" fantasy races like dwarves and elves.  I've come to grow bored with the notion of monsters as just things that kill or be killed.  Instead, I've come to enjoy the idea that a creature like, say, an aranea (a human-sized, shapeshifting spider monster with no particular bent toward evil) could actually just be your friendly neighbor who sells the silk he weaves himself. 

The idea for this mod is that, in a world where no one species can claim dominance, due to the vagueries of the advantages that different terrains or breeding strategies or natural predators or disease may have, all remotely sentient creatures - "monster" or not - would ally themselves with any empire in their native biome whose ethics they could comply with.

(This is "just an idea", as I am waiting on DF2010 to impliment this, for obvious reasons.  I'm just anticipating this, and want to hash out a solid idea for how the castes will intermingle for now.)

This means there will be no "dwarf" civ or "human" civ or "elf" civ, but a "Stonehall Alliance" of mountain creatures with a more-or-less dwarvenly ethics code, one or two civs made of general (flatland) city dwellers (If there are two civs, one will be an aggressive expansionist "Imperium", the other a more mercantile civ), a civ of fey and mystical creatures, a "Shadow Guild" mini-civ (cave type) that represents a sort of black market and lawless society of outcasts and theives (winter trading for those "any creature" cages that elves currently trade, but also playing the role of kobolds now), and a "Blazing Scourge" for demon-led war civs (I.E. orc and goblin hordes) just to ensure your magma has something to melt.

What I would like to talk about is what sort of sentients you see taking each side, and how a hypothetical caste system could be set up to make a world that feels more like an integrated, cosmopolitan world than simply a rehash of the same "Dwarves versus Elves" argument (especially since we already know which one of those two is superior).  I'd also like to see people push out ideas for potential sentients (I don't think you can really call people monsters if they are full citizens who live next door to you), from myth or creative or logical extrapolation.

The rest of this is split into another post and spoilered for "Holy Jeebus on a Stick, this post is long!"
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 01:26:43 am by NW_Kohaku »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010, 08:26:29 pm »

An idea for the races of the "Stonehall Alliance" (I.E. your main group):

Dwarves -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cacamudos -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Lamia -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Aranea - 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Minotaurs -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'd also like to have a batman or maybe a harpy, but I'm not sure if putting in flyers (even if they work with the next version) would be a good idea, as having some of your not-exactly-dwarves fly could be unbalancing, even if everyone had a flier.

Gnomes would have been a possible candidate, but I shied away because they're... well, too much like dwarves, and I wanted the different races within the one civ to stand out more.

I know it's really out there, but I'd also have liked the idea of a "mandragora" civ member that has to be farmed and harvested to be "born".  Maybe, MAYBE, there might one day be raws powerful enough to make something like that possible, but I know I probably wont' even get the chance to do what I'm talking about already.



I'm having trouble really settling on names for these civilization types, so if you guys have propositions, by all means, I'm open to them.  It's even tougher when this is more of a "culture" than it is a single given actual kingdom, and they can have multiple splinter civs.  Of course, since they would likely cooperate, you could still consider them all part of one loosely-knit empire which falls under somewhat disparate fiefdoms.

The Bronze Imperium

These guys... I'm really thinking "Early Roman", back when they were all about conquest, and before they got into the really hedonisitic stuff.  Warlike, more likely to invade than trade.  They're heavy hitters, with numbers, war animals, and hopefully also something not unlike steel, although I'd hate to be dropping out "goblinite presents" so that you have limitless metal supplies in this game.  Maybe I'll make special types of clothing/equipment that get melted down at really terrible ratios, so that it's not quite as useful.  What would be best is if I could enforce actually using some kind of special alloy of bronze that dwarves don't know how to make or break down (possibly because of an enzyme excreted by myrmidons... it's magic, OK?) I'd really like to imagine a massive sea of rust-colored, red-skinned soldiers marching across the horizon, the setting sun turning everything red before them, as they march to battle.

Myrmidons -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Patricians (Human... ish.  Help think of a better name, if you can.)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Canid -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm also thinking of having suitable mounts for a race like this.  Preferably, they might even be able to have a "mount" that is a war machine capable of breath weapons that fake seige engine effects.  Maybe place them on top of specially bred giant war elephants or something. 

You'll note this civ has only two races.  I'd like to make them a bit more on the xenophobic side, even if they are fairly strange, themselves.  They may, however, have plenty of slaves.  Maybe I could put in an almost entirely slave caste, and make them the elves, sort of like in Dragon Age?



Avalon: 

(Also considering something like "Fae Court" or "Beyond the Veil" or something... the idea, anyway, is to give a notion of being fae creatures.)

This is the "forest" civ.  I wanted to go for a less comically inept race than elves in DF, and go instead for something like a Grimm Fairytail version of fae.  After all, tales of fairies were actually enough to prevent people from ever travelling in the woods in ages past, before the Victorian whitewashing of them.  I'm sort of inspired by both the White Wolf "Changeling: The Lost" as well as a bit of Touhou in this, as well.  Need I say that they're still going to be cannibals?  Of course, they won't care about being traded wood stuff in return anymore, though... in fact, they may trade you dwarf bone short swords in return.

They should rely mostly on special, natural attacks, and not have much of any loot to drop if you attack them, but they can still use wood bows and arrows, so that they've got plenty of annoying ranged attackers.

Also, I think I'll go with no "real" elves in this civ.  They're just a little too cliched, and I have plenty of alternatives.  Consider elves to have "melded" into several different races, either magically or evolutionarily, except for the half-breed elves in other civs.

These should also be kidnappers or ambushers, as well as seigers.  In fact, it might be best to go for entirely ambushers, but just make them truly huge ambushes.  Since they have special attacks and some can fly, you'd pretty much just have to lock everything down and stay paranoid in the first month if you go to war with these guys.

Faeries -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Satyrs -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dryads -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Naiads -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Draconids -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Centaurs -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Wolf Tengu -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Oni -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tsukumogami -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rakshasa
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yukionna -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Jorougumo -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Youko (kitsune) -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

WHEW! Finally done with that civ... it's... umm... kinda long, isn't it?



The Silkroad Kingdoms

This is a mish-mash of "other" plains races that allied together out of necessity.  They're based around trade and are a fairly disparate group.  I know there's no real way to be able to work this with just castes alone, but I'd hope that they would be a fairly disloyal group, suspicious of anyone outside their own communities, but nevertheless, dependent upon trade, and because of that, forced to be cosmopolitan, even if it strains with buried racial tensions.

Humans (Maybe I should give them another race name?) -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Enothoyari (Maybe I should just make up a shorter name, like "Arrayen" or something, but this should be "fallen man/woman" in elvish) -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Lizardmen -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sphinx -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Harpy -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kappa -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Inari (Kitsune) - 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 12:42:08 am by NW_Kohaku »
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 08:26:46 pm »

Unseelie Court

Kobolds in the current game steal stuff... but they never trade, they just like to take shiney things.  The shadow guild is something like a black market race.  Like the fae civ and the expansionist civ, you're probably going to be at "war" with them somewhat often, but because they're cave civs, they'd be harder to find.  I'll probably keep these guys from reproducing very fast by making them have long childhoods, so that they don't get too involved in warfare.  If they are few in number, it really would be best, anyway.  I'd like these creatures to be the outcasts of a fairly tolerant world - the forsaken creatures that don't really fit in anywhere.  I like to imagine them bringing a caravan as hunched-over misshapen figures with black cloaks, whose faces are never seen by those they trade with.

Cyclops -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nightmare -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dullahan -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Gorgon -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Gargoyle -
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'd also want a fire-type creature, but am unsure on what to find to stick in this role.  Maybe an Efreeti?



The Pure Dwarven Brotherhood

These are vanilla dwarves (except with bearded females), but with a racist bent - they are a splinter faction that detests the mixing of dwarven blood with the "unclean" to such an extent that they have formed their own militant culture that is dedicated to eradicating the "inpure".  They are a raider race that should appear with not too much delay... Because of this, they're probably going to be this mod's source of "Goblinite".



The Tormented

These will be made up of "changed" humans, and will essentially be something like a shambling horde of demons.  I'm not quite ready to really push these guys out yet, but I expect to make them a group of very serious heavy combatants that only strike against large, well-established fortresses, and will include mixes of trap evasion or magma immunity or the like in their various forms, have something like iron chains threaded through their skin as a sort of natural armor, or otherwise be very unpleasant, powerful attackers.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 07:42:19 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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ShadowLuigi147

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2010, 10:43:21 pm »

Dear god...that was a wall of text....

Anyways, its an amazing idea, and it sounds epic, now I'm uber psyched for the new version.
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timmeh

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2010, 10:45:28 pm »

This is incredible... if this ever gets done, I am definitely using it :D

As for the fire-type creature for the Shadow Guild, the Efreeti would be interesting although a creature that's constantly on fire could be an overwhelmingly powerful enemy, given some of the stuff in the dev logs about the magma-men...  Perhaps something slightly toned down would work better, although I don't really know enough about fantasy/mythological creatures to say any more...

Anyways, kudos on taking the time to design and write all this, and to anyone who didn't bother to read it, go back and do so, it's awesome :P
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2010, 10:56:08 pm »

Yeah, did you know that the board stops you at something like 40,000 (or was it 400,000?) characters?  That's why it's three posts.

Anyway, I'll modify in those things when I get the chance, and when the the new version comes out, and I can test the viability of each caste.

I'm a little worried with the fire creature, because while I'd like them destructive... I don't want them to be fire imps (or worse, wizards), and throw fireballs around that set wildfires that consume their own non-fireproof allies.  I do, however, want some creatures that are magma-proof, so that "dump magma on it" ISN'T the answer to everything.  (Not that you can stop the funhouse with magma, either.)

I'm leaning more and more towards making an entire unique goblin and demon hybrid race, as well.  Any suggestions on what the legions should feature?

Also, what about the creatures I'm really tossed up on, like Sphinxes that can interbreed with humans?
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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darkflagrance

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2010, 11:05:16 pm »

It seems like you'd like to make an entity encompass many races, because otherwise I don't see how races under the same alliance would coexist on the same battlefield as friends. As far as I know, this is impossible, for if several races are listed under an entity, the game will pick one at random. But the trading etc. should work fine if ethics are worked out.

This may be different for the next release. This can also be kludged with castes, but it would probably be a bit weird to have two dwarves give birth to an aranea. Castes should work fine for NPC societies though, because you'll only see the right proportions of demons and orcs attacking, not interbreeding.

You also have a formatting error with rakshasa and yukionna. Maybe rakshasa illusions could be simulated by making them give off smoke to make them hard to see?

Edit: ok fixed.

And for the mares, you could also give them various paralysis-venom attacks to simulate the casting of a spell or curse that leads to a brief sleep, endless sleep, or random naps.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 06:04:03 am by darkflagrance »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2010, 12:39:54 am »

This may be different for the next release. This can also be kludged with castes, but it would probably be a bit weird to have two dwarves give birth to an aranea. Castes should work fine for NPC societies though, because you'll only see the right proportions of demons and orcs attacking, not interbreeding.

No, this is exactly what I intend to do.  (And I intend it for the next release.)  THEY CALLED ME MAD WHEN I TRIED TO BREED SNAKES AND SPIDERS TOGETHER TO PRODUCE BULLS AND DWARVES, BUT I'LL SHOW THEM!

Quote
You also have a formatting error with rakshasa and yukionna. Maybe rakshasa illusions could be simulated by making them give off smoke to make them hard to see?

... I have no idea what that is... it looks normal in the text.

Quote
And for the mares, you could also give them various paralysis-venom attacks to simulate the casting of a spell or curse that leads to a brief sleep, endless sleep, or random naps.

That is exactly what I intend to do.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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Kaelem Gaen

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2010, 03:28:31 am »

I know you don't want "real" elves (by the way, your ideas are awesome, I hope Interbreeding genetics is in next release)

But I suggest trying to find the original elves,  I believe they were from the Fae, but they were evil freaking bastards akin to demons.     One example I remember reading sometime back was,   They climb into towers of princesses and nobles,  and would then rape and behead the poor woman.

I think that was one of the stories about the original Elves ... I could be wrong though.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 03:32:21 am by Kaelem Gaen »
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darkflagrance

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2010, 06:12:59 am »

I know you don't want "real" elves (by the way, your ideas are awesome, I hope Interbreeding genetics is in next release)

But I suggest trying to find the original elves,  I believe they were from the Fae, but they were evil freaking bastards akin to demons.     One example I remember reading sometime back was,   They climb into towers of princesses and nobles,  and would then rape and behead the poor woman.

I think that was one of the stories about the original Elves ... I could be wrong though.

I was also thinking of this as well. They would not be generic elves, but would be the Faerie folk that swap children for changelings, lure knights to banquets that last centuries, both beautiful and monstrous at the same time.

Considering that this world also possesses malevolent river spirits that lure creatures to their deaths and various subtle monsters from Japanese lore, and beasts that infect dreams, along with the fact that goblins seem to be associated with the horde-like nature of traditional orcs, there should be a slot for a race that is old and uniquely steeped in magic and lore from eternities spent in their timeless halls, cunning and cruel as patricians but motivated by spite, passion, and boredom rather than imperial ambition.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2010, 08:13:30 am »

Well, the thing about elves is that elves and faeries and fae in general are basically all the same thing.  Faeries and Elves are the same creature whose storytelling evolution diverged to make one tiny creatures, and the other humans with pointy ears and with each one "betterer" than the last.

I guess I could go back and make that part of the story, but basically, the Dullahan is kind of an elf.

I guess I could go for a "Seelie" and "Unseelie" set of races, and throw things like brownies into the Seelie court, while making the Shadow Guild Unseelie, and chucking things like boggarts in there.

Still, I'm not sure I want to go the route of following someone else's idea of what makes a coalition of magical creatures, though, since the entire point of this is to create a strange and unique hodge-podge coalition.
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Rolan7

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2010, 04:29:29 pm »

Good job, you've rekindled my interest in the next version.  Not sure whether to be grateful or annoyed. 

However, when this mod is out I will love you forever!  And I honestly enjoyed reading that whole thing, it was very interesting.

I've long wanted proper Fae in my DF.  Fae to be feared.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2010, 06:57:21 pm »

Well, my point was not so much to just make a fae that you know are in the woods, you can hear feasting and drinking, that you've seen your little brother dragged away, screaming, to an unknowable fate of either lifelong servitude to alien, uncaring, and utterly insane masters, or simple service as a main course in that feast, and that tonight, they come to your small, ill-defended fortress...

It's that you've got about a 50-50 chance of them coming to share some wine and trade their spare lumber for some rock mugs, or that they're coming to eat you, too.

The general goal of this is to erase the (what I feel is tired) notion of a few creatures that are basically human are the defenders of good and purity, and that everything else is trying to corrupt that purity.  I'd rather just have everything be a crazy mix where everything is struggling to survive by banding together into groups that can actually manage to live with one another without killing each other, and then randomly deciding to go killing everyone else.

I mean, I'm putting in a goblin horde just because there is pretty much a requirement in DF that you have SOMEONE with torches and pitchforks at the gates, but I'm not terribly happy about having to make it.

Maybe I'll just make goblins the front lines of an Unseelie court, and instead of having demons, we'll just have hobgoblins and creatures that sit in their warm cave spider silk socks and slippers, drinking dwarven wine from dwarven-made glass goblets that are trying to balance in their minds the fact that they would really rather trade for a nicer table and have access to more fine wines with the fact that, well, they feast upon and gain strength from the emotion of fear, and those dwarves are just so darn easy and fun to torture!  Decisions, decisions...

(He really is a nice guy when you get to know him... he just... likes to eat your pain, that's all!)

So, I could make a demon-spawn goblin horde which gradiate from goblins to lovecraftian half-breeds to Funtime with the clowns...  Or I could spend a week running through the Internet or hitting Barnes & Noble looking for fairy tail monsters to have sitting across from your Baroness's table, sipping tea, and negotiating a price on leggings for the next year's trade caravan.
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TeDDD

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2010, 10:40:47 am »

You've inspired me to steal invent my own system once I know more about the caste system and can actually monkey with it.
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Rolan7

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Re: Stonehall Alliance - Hypothetical DF2010 cosmopolitan civs mod
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2010, 01:15:16 pm »

Well, my point was not so much to just make a fae that you know are in the woods, you can hear feasting and drinking, that you've seen your little brother dragged away, screaming, to an unknowable fate of either lifelong servitude to alien, uncaring, and utterly insane masters, or simple service as a main course in that feast, and that tonight, they come to your small, ill-defended fortress...

It's that you've got about a 50-50 chance of them coming to share some wine and trade their spare lumber for some rock mugs, or that they're coming to eat you, too.

Heh, they almost sound like typical DF players.

They also sound like a lot of fun (both senses) to interact with.  If this is really possible in the next version... well, I wish you the best of luck, and if I find I can help then I will!

As for the relatively benign demons, I'm sure you're familiar with www.missmab.com ?  That webcomic has a setting that sounds similar in some ways to what you're going for, but in particular, it has several types of Cubi.  Some treat the other races as food, but some Cubi try to coexist.  Sadness-consuming Cubi working at funeral parlours, comforting people by eating their sadness (they're in disguise of course).
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Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.
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