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[Jude]

supporting oppressive governments like ... Israel ...

WTF?  Israel is the most [classical] liberal democracy in the Middle East, and were it not for Iraq the only democracy.  Despite suffering constant attacks from Palestinians Israeli citizens enjoy unprecedented civil liberties, both for a people at war and for a people of the Middle East.  Whatever liberty interests you, be it religious freedom, gay rights, women's rights, economic freedom, or the right to vote Israel is the only country in the Middle East that covers it all.  And they preserve all these liberties unapologetically under a constant rain of shrapnel from artillery shells and suicide bombers courtesy of their age-old foe the Palestinians.

There's always SOMEBODY with the "Oh Israel is the only democracy in the middle east" line.

Seriously. You don't know jack shit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlements


Also, "constant rain of suicide bombers" lol. Looks like someone hasn't been reading any news from there for the past couple years.

If you think Israel is oppressive you have been inside the West Bank.

Fixed that for you.

Waterboarding does no permanent physical harm and causes neither "pain" in the classic sense nor lingering ill effects.  Most damaging to your case though is that terrorists can end their coercion at any time by simply telling what they know.  That doesn't rise to the legal definition of "torture", at least not in this neck of the woods.

How are you such an expert on whether waterboarding is painful or not? Also, the problem with "terrorists can end their coercion at any time" is that a) it's still torture and b) a bunch of the people we pick up in Iraq and Afghanistan and subsequently waterboard, ARE NOT TERRORISTS. The majority of the Guantanamo Bay suspects, for example, were just dudes that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, or were essentially sold to us for reward money.

[redacted123]

supporting oppressive governments like ... Israel ...

WTF?  Israel is the most [classical] liberal democracy in the Middle East, and were it not for Iraq the only democracy.

There's always SOMEBODY with the "Oh Israel is the only democracy in the middle east" line.

Seriously. You don't know jack shit.

Democracy is a system of government, a country can be a democracy regardless of how well it conforms to your standards of what's right and wrong.

[Siquo]

You mean like Palestina? Who chose the Hamas as their leaders democratically?
And yet the US refuses to talk with this democratically chosen entity. "Democracy is great, as long as our friends are chosen."

[redacted123]

You mean like Palestina? Who chose the Hamas as their leaders democratically?
And yet the US refuses to talk with this democratically chosen entity. "Democracy is great, as long as our friends are chosen."

I never said that Israel was the only one. All I'm saying is that democracy is a form of government and isn't synonymous with "western" or anyone's concept of what a democracy should be like. As long as it's a system where everyone votes for their leaders, it's a democracy.

[Jude]

Democracy is a system of government, a country can be a democracy regardless of how well it conforms to your standards of what's right and wrong.

Congrats that has nothing to do with what I posted

you can be a democracy and still be oppressive

Also I find it odd that people wouldn't talk to the Hamas government because they're terrorists, but the Olmert government could rack up a death toll much higher than a decade (or more)'s worth of Hamas attacks in "Operation Cast Lead" and not be terrorists and still be worthy to talk to

[redacted123]

Democracy is a system of government, a country can be a democracy regardless of how well it conforms to your standards of what's right and wrong.

Congrats that has nothing to do with what I posted

you can be a democracy and still be oppressive

It has everything to do with it, you were disputing whether or not Israel is a democracy.

You don't know jack shit

[Jude]

It has everything to do with it, you were disputing whether or not Israel is a democracy.

Ah, and this is where you quote my disputing that Israel is a democracy, or else look stupid

[redacted123]

Don't mind if I do.

There's always SOMEBODY with the "Oh Israel is the only democracy in the middle east" line.

Seriously. You don't know jack shit.

Now, am I the only one who though those two lines were related? Were they completely separate statements?

[KaelGotDwarves]

I hate to be that guy and interrupt the ongoing shitstorm already in progress, but if we're going to start screaming, "you don't know jack shit" at each other - you might as well get your terms right, because seems to me you're both arguing a similar point and are just arguing to argue. lolinternet.

Israel is not a democracy. The United States is not a democracy. Democracy died when the Greeks figured out it was horribly inefficient to have every dumbfuck male in Athens vote on every little thing that needed voting on. We have a representative republic where every few years we go to the ballot box and we pull the lever to have representatives hopefully voice our opinions for us, and then drive off feeling like we actually did something constructive. We call it democracy because "We're bringing you FREEDOM™!" sure sounds a lot better than "we're bringing you the ability to vote in a businessman who is going to look out for his own interests and perhaps fuck you in the ass while pretending to pander to your likes".

That being said and onto the two minutes hate... Israel and Palestine both have representative governments. They are locked in a mindset of thousands of years of hate and resentment and crossing the border to rape, pillage, and carry off women. No one is right, because they've both been wrong, wronged, and remain in a 1st grade "well he did it first" paradigm of an-eye-for-an-eye.

In other words, proving that humanity is backasswards and not that far evolved from monkeys with our reasoning abilities.

As an atheist I almost wish for the bloody sky wizard to come down and tell all his children they're acting like dumbasses.

[sonerohi]

So, just to cover the bases, any demographics we haven't been assholes to? I've yet to see some rage at the Irish.

[KaelGotDwarves]

No one hates Buddhists. Except for China (Tibetans), and fundamentalists.

[Creaca]

Those damned Irish, always using potatoes from America as a sustainable crop, only to have a blight take out most of the potatoes and force them to immigrate to America and eventually become productive citizens.

Uhg, if I had a nickel every time the Irish did that...

[ToonyMan]

United States of McAmerica.

[Jude]

Don't mind if I do.

There's always SOMEBODY with the "Oh Israel is the only democracy in the middle east" line.

Seriously. You don't know jack shit.

Now, am I the only one who though those two lines were related? Were they completely separate statements?

Well there were like wikipedia links in between showing how oppressive Israel is

In any case maybe I could have been clearer but what I was saying was that there's always somebody who's like "OMG Israel is the good guy they're a democracy [implicitly: therefore they can't do anything wrong]"

when obviously that isn't the case

Hence why another one of my posts was "being a democracy doesn't mean you're not oppressive" especially when the people you're oppressing aren't citizens of your democracy

[Jude]

Israel is not a democracy. The United States is not a democracy.

OK, technically true, but you know what people mean by "democracy"

That being said and onto the two minutes hate... Israel and Palestine both have representative governments. They are locked in a mindset of thousands of years of hate and resentment and crossing the border to rape, pillage, and carry off women. No one is right, because they've both been wrong, wronged, and remain in a 1st grade "well he did it first" paradigm of an-eye-for-an-eye.

Oh what an incredibly nuanced view of the situation