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[Lancensis]

Generated World appropriate Name Tags
I've been looking at the issue presented with not using 'real world' references, such as 'Northern' or 'Komodo' or the like.  I'm wondering what the possibility is with the upcoming expansion that we could have species that reference the world gen file and dig up things like "The Smooth Spires of Pride" and generate the "Pride Cardinal", or the "Swamps of Regret" and create the "Crocodiles of Regret".  Neither are spectacular examples, but I think you get the idea.  These would allow us to have the critters named in a way that references the world in which they exist.  Additionally names would be referenced by Biome, so the names would only be applied to those from the appropriate Biome.  Part of the basis of this idea is the sheer amount of information generated during the world gen process.

It's a good idea, but there's nothing we can really do about it. Things are named, and animals are placed during worldgen, and if you want to add another creature, you'll have to create a new world, for it to spawn. All you could really do is rename an animal after the world had already been created. But then, crocodiles everywhere would be The Crocodiles of regret.

Plans are to randomly generate new creatures like this in the future, so hold on, I guess.

[Darbuk.Ubildolush]

*nods* I had figured that'd likely be an issue.  I decided to put it out there anyway, but this would rather require separate creature raws for each generated world wouldn't it?

[Lancensis]

It'd require separate raws for each region. The only possible way to do it would be by creating a world with only one region of each type of biome (basically a pocket world), with a set of creatures differing only in their biomes (and entry names, so you get get duplicate errors). Then you could rename a creature after the region in which it lived.

[Darbuk.Ubildolush]

I can't help but think that could be managed within a single RAW with the use of a generated 'Biome' or 'Region' tag within it.  Those would of course have to be generated during world generation, but I think it'd handle it cleanly.

[Lancensis]

I'm talking about modding this version. I don't doubt that Toady could add such a feature. I think something similar is planned one day, but not this version, or the next release.

[Darbuk.Ubildolush]

Ah, see.. I'm looking at the future development of the game, next release and beyond. 

[Pizdzius]

Oh and I was worried this project got a hiatus due to still unreleased game!
No worries lads, I'm making the sprites, I'm waiting for the update to see the templates too. Hope it's moving forward!

[Lancensis]

It's not so much on hiatus, it's just there doesn't seem to be much to talk about. I should really finish cataloging birds, but stuff has gotten very busy. Why don't we start on some Prefstrings?

[Darbuk.Ubildolush]

Where would that be being done Lacensis?

Also, I did do some updates in the wiki, just started and finished the gulper eels.  Wasn't exactly lengthy, and other than the two listed there wasn't really a discernible difference between them.

[Lancensis]

Where would that be being done Lacensis?

gulper eels.  Wasn't exactly lengthy

Missed out on a good pun there.

The prefstrings: Just list them in your own files for now. I'll talk about it with Footkerchief and Rainseeker.

[Gorobay]

I've been working on a couple of top-level creature templates to make sure that whole approach actually works.  If they work well, then I'll post them so that people can start implementing creatures.  It'll be a couple more days at least, though, and unfortunately I still won't have much time for Ark stuff until after this release.

Now that it's released, how are those top-level creature templates coming along?

[Neonivek]

Soo glad people worked in insects while I was gone slash procrastinating

[Footkerchief]

First: sorry for the lack of updates.  I was busy testing DF for most of the last two months, and now the bug tracker's sucking up a lot of time, but things are returning to normal and hopefully I'll have more time for this project.

I've been doing some experimenting.  Turns out the game doesn't cope well, currently, with 3000 types each of dummy creatures and vermin.  It's pretty much impossible to load on my machine due to crappy memory (1 GB), although on my friend's much better machine (4 GB) it runs fine after a few minutes of loading (although it takes up 1 GB of memory all by itself).

This doesn't mean the project is doomed, as there are probably many optimizations (both in speed and mem usage) that Toady can make at some point.  It does mean that it may be a while before we see the fruits of our labor.  Hopefully that won't discourage anyone, as this was always a long-term project anyway.

The wiki templates are ready, I think.  This is a green light for the implementation phase.  One of these templates is "Abstract Creature," which we'll be using for hierarchical prefstrings.  Check it out here (edit that page to see how to use it).    You can also begin adding prefstrings to individual creatures.

The major caveat is that you should add prefstrings as high in the taxonomical hierarchy is possible.  For example, instead of putting [PREFSTRING:shiny scales] on a piranha -- which doesn't make sense, since most fish have shiny scales -- add an Abstract Creature named "fish" to the bony fish page.  Normally abstract creatures and other template-y things would be added under a section header, but for pages that don't have a top-level section header, you can just put the abstract creature at the top.

Now that it's released, how are those top-level creature templates coming along?

I didn't get very far, unfortunately:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE_VARIATION:ARK_BASIC]
[CV_ADD_TAG:NATURAL]
[CV_ADD_TAG:MUNDANE]

[CREATURE_VARIATION:VERTEBRATE]
[CV_ADD_TAG:CREATURE_TILE:'V'][CV_ADD_TAG:COLOR:6:0:0]
[CV_ADD_TAG:NATURAL]
[CV_ADD_TAG:BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_MATERIALS]
[CV_ADD_TAG:BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_TISSUES]
[CV_ADD_TAG:BODY:QUADRUPED:TAIL:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:5TOES_FQ:5TOES_RQ:MOUTH:GENERIC_TEETH:RIBCAGE]
[CV_ADD_TAG:SELECT_TISSUE_LAYER:HEART:BY_CATEGORY:HEART]
[CV_ADD_TAG:PLUS_TISSUE_LAYER:SKIN:BY_CATEGORY:THROAT]
[CV_ADD_TAG:MAJOR_ARTERIES]
[CV_ADD_TAG:BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_HEAD_POSITIONS]
[CV_ADD_TAG:BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HUMANOID_RIBCAGE_POSITIONS]
[CV_ADD_TAG:USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SINEW:SINEW_TEMPLATE]
[CV_ADD_TAG:TENDONS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SINEW:200]
[CV_ADD_TAG:LIGAMENTS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SINEW:200]
[CV_ADD_TAG:HAS_NERVES]
[CV_ADD_TAG:USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:BLOOD:BLOOD_TEMPLATE]
[CV_ADD_TAG:BLOOD:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:BLOOD:LIQUID]
[CV_ADD_TAG:CREATURE_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
[CV_ADD_TAG:GETS_WOUND_INFECTIONS]
[CV_ADD_TAG:GETS_INFECTIONS_FROM_ROT]
[CV_ADD_TAG:USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:PUS:PUS_TEMPLATE]
[CV_ADD_TAG:PUS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:PUS:LIQUID]
[CV_ADD_TAG:NAME:vertebrate:vertebrates:vertebrate]
[CV_ADD_TAG:CASTE_NAME:vertebrate:vertebrates:vertebrate]
[CV_ADD_TAG:CHILD:1][CV_ADD_TAG:GENERAL_CHILD_NAME:young vertebrate:young vertebrates]

All untested, and that VERTEBRATE one will probably have to be redone from scratch anyway.  I'm not sure whether using the default body detail plans is a good idea. 

@Fieari re: Komodo Dragons 
Might I suggest "Ora Lizard" or "Ora Dragon" for the Komodo dragon?  Kinda combining the best of both worlds, and the first one conveniently leaves out Dragon as well.

I could go with some variant of "Ora," yeah.  I don't think it's essential to remove "dragon" though.

Vermin and Grubs/Maggots/etc
One possible justification has occurred to me regarding including things like larval stages.  Can vermin eat your food?  If so, can we alter them to eat other stuff? If so then having maggots in your food supply, moth larvae in your silk bins, and termites in your lumber pile could all be reasons to include these kinds of critters.  (I realize Termites step away from the grub concept, but I had to include them conceptually)

Vermin can get into food, yeah, but they can't yet be modded to get into other goods.  It's a good point, though.  Fortunately, castes should make it relatively painless to hack in the larval stages.

"Footkerchief:  I think we should at least start writing prefstrings for each animal soon.

(Unsure who this was, failed to note it)I'm still not sure what we should do about prefstrings.  As many as possible should probably go in taxon-level creature variations ("creature templates"), so that if we want [PREFSTRING:rough skin] for sharks, we can just put that in the shark template instead of adding it to each individual shark.  What do other people think about this approach?"


Well, there's an argument to be made for liking a particular beetle for it's 'color of shell', kinda like enjoying a particular parrot for it's 'color of plumage'.  I just wish there was a way to tie a dwarf's preference in color to their selection of favorite animal.  (Like's Blue Macaws for their blue plumage.  He likes Blue, Dwarven Ale, and Purring Maggot meat when he can get it.)

Yeah, this is yet another limitation of the current preference system -- it just picks random stuff instead of looking at their likes and dislikes in a unified way.  The "liking a particular beetle for it's 'color of shell'" thing is reasonable, though, and I didn't mean to imply that all prefstrings should be done at the abstract creature level -- individual creatures can still have their own prefstrings for their unique or mostly-unique properties.

[Gorobay]

If abstract creatures consist only of prefstrings, should they have the [DOES_NOT_EXIST] tag, or will the game figure it out?

This doesn't mean the project is doomed, as there are probably many optimizations (both in speed and mem usage) that Toady can make at some point.

Do you know what he can do specifically, or is that merely a reasonable assumption?

[Lancensis]

I've been doing some experimenting.  Turns out the game doesn't cope well, currently, with 3000 types each of dummy creatures and vermin.  It's pretty much impossible to load on my machine due to crappy memory (1 GB), although on my friend's much better machine (4 GB) it runs fine after a few minutes of loading (although it takes up 1 GB of memory all by itself).

Does it slow down in-game stuff or is it mainly Worldgen/loading type things? If it bogs down creature creation in arena, we could use the arena_restricted tag judiciously.

If abstract creatures consist only of prefstrings, should they have the [DOES_NOT_EXIST] tag, or will the game figure it out?

I'm not sure precisely what the tag does. If it just removes them from stockpile menus and stops people liking their skin/bone I guess so. Does it have any wierd side effects?