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[Urist Imiknorris]

since you can't make an anvil without an anvil.

Which came first, the anvil or the forge?

[Sir Iryn]

Well, not really.

Magma forges still need a steel anvil, though thats just a matter of importing since you can't make an anvil without an anvil. And to make steel and pig iron uses 2 charcoal in a normal furnace and 1 in a magma furnace, removing the fuel but keeping the carbon input.

Not true, on both counts.

In my current fortress, all my anvils in my magma forges are iron. There's really no reason to make a steel anvil unless you intend to trade it.

To make steel or pig iron, you need one piece of fuel. It doesn't matter whether it is a magma smelter or a regular. One piece of fuel. In a regular smelter, it's used both as a fuel and in the smelting process at the same time.

[shadowsofwhite]

Well, actually, the first anvils were made of stone, and were later upgraded to bronze. In reality, you don't need an anvil to make an anvil (and thus should really be a reaction from the smelter, as I have it), considering casting is a common method of production.

Which came first, the anvil or the forge?

The forge, obviously. That is a "chicken or the egg" question, wherein the egg came first (unless you're a creationist).

[The Architect]

That is a "chicken or the egg" question, wherein the egg came first (unless you're a creationist).

This is just silly. Haha!

Actually, if you're an evolutionist, the answer is neither. It's generally the creationists who don't have a definitive answer to the question, and the question dates back before the widespread acceptance of evolutionary theory. The question being: Did God create things with a sense of age, or not? If you're an evolutionist, the question is: At what point on the evolutionary line do you consider an egg to be an egg and a chicken to be a chicken?

More on-topic, I totally agree with casting anvils. I also believe that the quality of the tools (including the anvil and the forge itself) should affect the quality of the product.

[Zeg]

Not true, on both counts.

It does seem that I was mistaken. But I'm not entirely sure when it was changed. I never played the 2D version, so I'm not sure it was in that transition. Also, if you try and build a magma forge with no anvil availible, it specificly says it needs a 'magma safe' anvil, instead of a 'fire safe' one for a regular forge. Though iron objects are equally magma safe as steel for other uses, it seems to sugest that even in the 3D version there was a distinction at some point.

[Thanshin]

Actually, if you're an evolutionist, the answer is neither. [...]If you're an evolutionist, the question is: At what point on the evolutionary line do you consider an egg to be an egg and a chicken to be a chicken?

Sorry, but no. If you're an evolutionist, there's no question; whatever strict definition you give of "chicken" will be genetic, and thus originate in the previous "almost chicken" at the moment of conception of an egg with "really chicken" adn.

Thus, egg comes first. Unless you believe in pixies, magic, pink unicorns or spagetti monsters.


Oh, and on the topic, I too believe anvil should modify quality of all construction. But I believe that of all components to buildings.

Anvils should be possible to cast (anvillessly) and their quality would simply be crap so they'd have to be replaced by a proper anvil when possible.

[shadowsofwhite]

Indeed, because, if you are an evolutionist, the egg was around before the chicken ever evolved. If you are a creationist, then there is no appropriate answer, because it is infallible for either answer.

I believe I am taking this in a more broad perspective, where if I take it from a scoped perspective, the example Thanshin does quite well.

All hail the flying spaghetti monster, for he is our god, the only god, the infallible and true god, whose home is in the heavens (outer space), and formed us of his meatballs.

Back to anvils.

I have a smelter reaction that allows me to make anvils out of bronze, but I cannot make anvils out of anything else, at the smelter (for fairness sake), due to that the most common form of making anvils back then involved heat/hammer welding billots of metal into the shape desired. Bronze, being relatively soft, could easily be hammered together on a block of stone.

[Thanshin]

I have a smelter reaction that allows me to make anvils out of bronze, but I cannot make anvils out of anything else, at the smelter (for fairness sake), due to that the most common form of making anvils back then involved heat/hammer welding billots of metal into the shape desired. Bronze, being relatively soft, could easily be hammered together on a block of stone.

Indeed. IIRC it was Stone->Bronze->Cast iron->Cast iron with steel face->steel.