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[Mr.Person]

@Pure Adamatium Nugget: Here's my version. I'm a bit worried about power if a scum gets it, but then again they'll dump it soon after acquiring it or risk dying.
Makes you kill immune and your kills bypass resistance and protections. After the second night you own this artifact, a random player with your alignment gets killed each night. This kill bypasses resistance but can be protected against. (This kill is very specific: Foo, killed by demons.)

Grayswandir: Grants you a double kill. (Grayswandir deals double damage to everything. That's not even getting into silver damage, which is likely to double your damage over, or the fact most people using Grayswandir duel-wield it with another silver saber, effectively doubling damage over again.)

Just a quick note, in Crawl there's a regular brand for cloaks called "of darkness". In Crawl you can activate it to become invisible temporarily, but it fails a lot and gives you magic contamination which causes glowing. So I'd make it an (x) activatable that gives you a 50% chance of being untargetable and lynch resistant for night/day you activate it on, but the next night and day you glow, making you targetable and lynchable if you would otherwise be untargetable or unlynchable for whatever reason. If the items fails, you don't glow. That seems alright in power for a rare, although maybe it should be a touch weaker. The chance for success could be lower, for instance. I'd also like to simplify since even for a rare this is pretty complex, but I can't think of any way to do that. So it might be best to just not add this at all. It's borderline unfun for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that nobody likes random chance all that much. It's also not fun to learn that your opponent "got lucky" to avoid the kill or lynch. So I dunno, I need another opinion on this. There's also the existing "cloak of shadows" that would have to be dealt with since they've got similar names. Is it even worth it?

I've got the perfect rename for "wand of jailing". Call it "Wand of Door Creation", a wand from IVAN. Does what it says on the tin, surrounds what you zap with doors. Mithril doors. Many of them locked. I think that qualifies as rolebock and protection, yes?

Do you guys think we should start a quicktopic or something to discuss this on so other games and whatnot can have some facetime as well? I love suggesting new items but there's a point where it gets too much.

Whoever's taking care of the Google doc (Toaster?), it might be cool if everything on there also listed the source of the item somewhere to help identify which items could do with renames. I'm a bit of a stickler that everything actually come from somewhere. Does anybody else care? I doubt it, but I'd gladly do a lot of the legwork here if you want. We might learn if we're leaning too heavily on one roguelike or whatever and not representing another very much. I don't think Angband is represented at all, for instance. I'd specifically like to see some more D&D stuff in there besides one artifact, although with my luck a bunch of stuff in there is from D&D since I wouldn't know one way or the other.

[webadict]

Ring of Speed - Perform two actions this Night.

That's kinda from Angband

[Darvi]

Ring of Speed - Perform two actions this Night.

That's kinda from Angband

But two different ones then. Two kills would be kinda overpowered.

[Book]

@Pure Adamatium Nugget: Here's my version. [...] (This kill is very specific: Foo, killed by demons.)

I like this. By the way, did we address item trading/sharing? Can I give or exchange a duplicate item via PM? If so, then the risk with this Nugget is that the scum pass it around every night.

Grayswandir: Grants you a double kill.

I'm of two minds on this one. Grayswandir is not that famous/cool an artefact outside of nethack (which may be overrepresented, as you say) or its source book. But if it's in, I'd say it's a re-kill type of double kill (bypassing protections/guardians and the like, like for a paranormal tough dopp), rather than two kills on the same night.

in Crawl there's a regular brand for cloaks called "of darkness".[...]Is it even worth it?

Seems too cumbersome. I'd vote against it.

I've got the perfect rename for "wand of jailing". Call it "Wand of Door Creation", a wand from IVAN. Does what it says on the tin, surrounds what you zap with doors. Mithril doors. Many of them locked. I think that qualifies as rolebock and protection, yes?

Yes, it sounds cool. I still like "paralysis" better, but I'm biased towards nethack, so I'm fine going IVAN for this one.

Do you guys think we should start a quicktopic or something to discuss this on so other games and whatnot can have some facetime as well? I love suggesting new items but there's a point where it gets too much.

Nah, Toaster seems to be pretty much ready to go with what he has, it shouldn't take much more hashing until he's ready to host the first game. If it is successful then yes, I'd say he opens a "Roguelike rules thread" akin to the Paranormal/Supernatural one. But during/after the first game would be the right time for that, I'd say.


PPE: Ring of speed is cool, but I think it's already in as an uncommon scroll/potion; would a ring be permanent? Then it'd be very powerful, a rare or artefact.

[webadict]

Artefact permanent.

And I always assumed only one mafiakill could happen anyway.

[Darvi]

Yeah, but if the game would be changed to also have SKs and stuff, it would kinda break the game. Just being crazy prepared.

And yeah, rarity would balance the rest out.

[Book]

Do you guys think we should start a quicktopic or something to discuss this on so other games and whatnot can have some facetime as well? I love suggesting new items but there's a point where it gets too much.

Nah, Toaster seems to be pretty much ready to go with what he has, it shouldn't take much more hashing until he's ready to host the first game. If it is successful then yes, I'd say he opens a "Roguelike rules thread" akin to the Paranormal/Supernatural one. But during/after the first game would be the right time for that, I'd say.

To clarify, I think the ideal time to open the dedicated thread would be when he opens the game for signups. The discussion thread would include the first official version of the rules, item list and so on, plus discussion for clarifications or changes, while the game thread is for sign ups and the game proper.

[Mr.Person]

@Pure Adamatium Nugget: Here's my version. [...] (This kill is very specific: Foo, killed by demons.)

I like this. By the way, did we address item trading/sharing? Can I give or exchange a duplicate item via PM? If so, then the risk with this Nugget is that the scum pass it around every night.

Forgot about that. We could change it so that 2 nights after anybody holds it, whoever carries it starts summoning demons that kill that player's team, even if they themselves just got the item moments before. That would suck for whichever poor sap picks the thing off the ground... or worse, steals it from the scumteam!

Grayswandir: Grants you a double kill.

I'm of two minds on this one. Grayswandir is not that famous/cool an artefact outside of nethack (which may be overrepresented, as you say) or its source book. But if it's in, I'd say it's a re-kill type of double kill (bypassing protections/guardians and the like, like for a paranormal tough dopp), rather than two kills on the same night.

Eh, that's not something I care about. That's up to Toaster. I would argue that two artifact swords from Nethack is appropriate, but yes, more than that is a bit much. If we do want a third Nethack artifact, I think we should pick a quest artifact. On the other hand, a SLASH'EM artifact would be fantastic.

Of course I meant the re-kill type, what kind of fool do you take me for? I could only imagine a scum doublekiller walking around and how much rage that would cause.

in Crawl there's a regular brand for cloaks called "of darkness".[...]Is it even worth it?

Seems too cumbersome. I'd vote against it.

I really wanted to get the "of darkness" information out there, but yes, I agree that's too cumbersome. I'm just occasionally surprised by what everyone else likes, so I figured I'd throw it out just the same.

I've got the perfect rename for "wand of jailing". Call it "Wand of Door Creation", a wand from IVAN. Does what it says on the tin, surrounds what you zap with doors. Mithril doors. Many of them locked. I think that qualifies as rolebock and protection, yes?

Yes, it sounds cool. I still like "paralysis" better, but I'm biased towards nethack, so I'm fine going IVAN for this one.

Not sure how paralysis would protect someone, although weren't we bickering about "flesh to stone" vs "petrification" before? I think door creation solves the problem quite nicely.

PPE: Ring of speed is cool, but I think it's already in as an uncommon scroll/potion; would a ring be permanent? Then it'd be very powerful, a rare or artefact.

Too powerful even as an artifact. I'd accept Speed Boots as an uncommon if it was "your action goes before all other actions", but a straight double action item with no drawback is too good. And a certain artifact already does that with drawbacks.

[webadict]

Too powerful even as an artifact. I'd accept Speed Boots as an uncommon if it was "your action goes before all other actions", but a straight double action item with no drawback is too good. And a certain artifact already does that with drawbacks.

I have no clue, I'm not looking at the items. I'm mostly posting from a phone.

I don't see double action as powerful, as the WORST you could do is the mafiakill and an item kill. But, then I could argue that there shouldn't be that many killing items to begin with.

[Mr.Person]

It's got more to do with the double action having no drawbacks whatsoever. There's no thought to how to use it, there's no debating what the best move is, you just use your items faster. It's unquestionably good. And more often than not, the player getting it will still only get scrolls all the time, so they haven't even benefited.

The only situation where you wouldn't spam through your items ASAP is if you have a roleblock or protect wand or staff that you want to use on one player over several nights. I'm also fine with artifacts being worse than rare items in practice, I just would like to avoid artifacts being worse on paper, if that makes any sense. I still think Speed Boots would be a bad addition as a double-action granter, but that's more from a game-enhancement PoV rather than a balance PoV.

[Toaster]

On Elephant Tusk/Vorpal Blade:  I guess Vorpal Blade is better.  I'll rename it as such assuming it doesn't get remade as a different effect.

Maybe give it a special (not generally visible) malus if it's wielded by scum? Say scum can get Excalibur, with the same effects, but in addition it negates any protection bestowed on them as punishment for wielding a Lawful artefact?

I like the idea of an invisible penalty for scum for any such item that be much stronger in the hands of scum- it's an attempt at balance at a game that largely lacks it.


Person:  Re Google Doc, yes, that's mine.  Does everything have to have a source?  I came up with that first list of items mostly out of my head, so they're largely unsourced.  Many effects could come from many- I just tried to come up with items that would fit in a mafia game themed around roguelikes.

In any case, it's a toss up to whom to credit Vorpal Blade, since I'm pretty sure D&D beat Nethack.  (At stealing it from C. S. Lewis Lewis Carroll, at least.)



Ring of Speed:  We already have Boots of Blinding Speed that gives two actions at the cost of randomizing their targets.  I'd think two actions as a permanent is too strong.


Pure Light Blue Nugget:  I'd rather wait until we start doing third parties for that one.  (First game will be third party free.  After that, all bets are off.)


Separate Thread:  Unless there's call to do it now, I'll start one after the first game if there's interest in another.


Artifacts:  Go ahead and give draft versions of them, and we can look at them case by case.


Hm.  The Golden Cornucopia- why not rename it Kal Berim?  You can get lots of items from an artifact cabinet, and that covers DF.

[webadict]

Ring of Speed vs. Boots of blinding Speed: While I'll admit that I forgot about the latter, the former can hardly be considered overpowered on its own. It's only overpowered when looking at the other one. In fact, the Boots of Blinding Speed are hardly good even if they were a rare.

[Toaster]

Split the difference then- only randomize the extra action?

[Book]

On Elephant Tusk/Vorpal Blade:  I guess Vorpal Blade is better.  I'll rename it as such assuming it doesn't get remade as a different effect.

Is it in as a public daykill?

Maybe give it a special (not generally visible) malus if it's wielded by scum? Say scum can get Excalibur, with the same effects, but in addition it negates any protection bestowed on them as punishment for wielding a Lawful artefact?

I like the idea of an invisible penalty for scum for any such item that be much stronger in the hands of scum- it's an attempt at balance at a game that largely lacks it.

Is Excalibur then in as a King for a Day thing? Cool!

In any case, it's a toss up to whom to credit Vorpal Blade, since I'm pretty sure D&D beat Nethack.  (At stealing it from C. S. Lewis, at least.)

Ahem.

[Toaster]

Derp, you're right.  That's what I get for not fact-checking myself.

Lemme sleep on those- my rational thinking ability is dropping.