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[Maximum Spin]

Some people are legit just awful at communicating. They're raised in this kind of politeness culture where it's polite to never ask a question that you don't already know the answer to, and you're supposed to just know what they really mean.

I love it = I love it
I love it = I hate it

Not unlike driving, I don't think you can call this "awful at communicating" when it works fine in its context, ie, with other people who also know to do that. They just speak a different language from you.

[Loud Whispers]

Not unlike driving, I don't think you can call this "awful at communicating" when it works fine in its context, ie, with other people who also know to do that. They just speak a different language from you.

It's being awful at communicating when they can't adapt to other contexts or other people. E.g. it's totally unreasonable to get mad at someone for saying no when you ask them a question just because you'd never say no, or get at someone for asking you a question because you actually wanted to have a meaningful interaction or schedule something or find out what they wanted. Even within their own context of politeness culture, where they exist in their own gated community and never have to interact with literally anyone else, they are awful at communication. They never tell each other what they actually mean, want or think, and when they have disagreements they bottle everything up behind 5,000 softening modifiers so no one is even aware there is a problem.

The amount of shit I have heard from these kinds of people do my head in. People without problems desperately in search of problems.
Example:
Loving couple, except the man is much richer than the woman and she feels insecure because he keeps taking her to expensive restaurants and paying for her. She asks me for advice and begins crying because she already told him how she feels about this whole thing but he keeps bringing her to them. I ask her for her exact wording, and she said she told her SO that she loved all the restaurants but prefers instant noodles.

So I smash my head on the fucking wall trying to explain how expressing deep enthusiasm for a kind gesture will elicit more of it, and she should just have a frank discussion about how she doesn't want to feel like she owes anything to him. She says no, because she cares about his feelings, so she would rather lie and say she has work every time he invites her to a dinner. Of course it ended badly -_-

Another one, two good friends of mine from wealthy families. Neither of them working at all. Both deep in this politeness culture and basically turned themselves into a social pariah and a wallflower respectively because every time the rest of us tried to schedule a meetup including them, we would get a wall of "I'll call you back ASAP" or a "I'm definitely interested and I want to go" and even if you could force them to commit, conversations with them were like pulling teeth. You'd have to get interrogations just to find out what kind of weather they liked.
Oh well, no harm no foul right? Except the moment you have something go wrong, this kind of communication style becomes fatal.

People who wear their heart on their sleeve and say what they mean and mean what they say are reliable. You can work around them, and when you have a disagreement or they offend you, you know exactly where they stand and can build a strong relationship from that. So when the former got drunk and disgraced himself at a new year's party, he starts giving me this politeness crap of "yeah I agree with you 100% I should stop drinking and I will stop drinking other than the times I go drinking." The latter friend managed to isolate himself by starting arguments with everyone by constantly having secret discussions about issues he had with everyone behind everyone's backs... Because he was worried about offending people. So when people politely discuss with him the issues he has with them that they didn't know were bothering him, he gets offended, because he said in his family it was impolite to discuss issues "you weren't supposed to have heard about." Even though the issues themselves were minute, trivial matters, this kind of stupid meta-matter ended up with him cutting himself off from everyone for fear of offending everyone even though no one was actually offended. -_-

Some people may drive on the left side, some people may drive on the right. But who the fuck is driving their car on the seafloor and their ship on the airport runway?

Some methods are more successful than others for group endeavours! There is a reason why where I work, all the nurses are blunt and straightforward, while all the doctors speak like 19th century civil servants. The doctors must absolutely make sure everything they say is strategically ambiguous so they're legally liable for nothing. Nurses must make sure things actually happen.

BE LIKE NURSES

SPEAK LIKE YOU WANT THINGS TO HAPPEN

Neurotypicals be like-

If I had a time machine I'd get Shakespeare to change the lines "Men should be what they seem" to just be Iago reeeeeeing on stage for 10 minutes "Cassio is a normie"

[Maximum Spin]

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% in favor of bluntness all the time. I just try to give people like that a little leeway on the understanding that they're speaking the language they know how to speak, and I can't browbeat them into speaking mine any more than I can make them sing La Marseille. I try to find a middle ground.

[Loud Whispers]

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% in favor of bluntness all the time. I just try to give people like that a little leeway on the understanding that they're speaking the language they know how to speak, and I can't browbeat them into speaking mine any more than I can make them sing La Marseille. I try to find a middle ground.

Yeah I'm just venting over the sheer calamitous scale of damage I've witnessed from people who speak like Romcom protagonists; every line creating relationship-splitting drama over a miscommunication easily resolved... If they weren't a romcom protag

[Maximum Spin]

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% in favor of bluntness all the time. I just try to give people like that a little leeway on the understanding that they're speaking the language they know how to speak, and I can't browbeat them into speaking mine any more than I can make them sing La Marseille. I try to find a middle ground.

Yeah I'm just venting over the sheer calamitous scale of damage I've witnessed from people who speak like Romcom protagonists; every line creating relationship-splitting drama over a miscommunication easily resolved... If they weren't a romcom protag

That's fair. I haven't ever seen anything that bad, myself. I'm trying really hard to see it from their perspective and say, well, you don't have to consider your own happiness to be a priority in communication... but yeah, I'd probably call them bad at communication too.

[Laterigrade]

Ehh, she was catching a train. I suspect it'll depend on what I say in the phonecall - how often I'll be able to see her, etc.

Yea so she called yesterday and I handled it well I think, reiterated what I wanted and what I wouldn't accept. She had issues with calling it a relationship related to distance etc - and had written a page of notes on the matter, heh. Also apparently she typically hasn't codified relationships in the past. And then she had a fairly long indecisive period and started to cry. 'Ich hab dich lieb,' she said, which a cursory Google search suggests means something between 'I like you' and 'I love you'?

Anyway, so I suggested waiting til we met in October and treating that as a test-run, but if we did that I wasn't going to tolerate the situation with the other fella. She agreed but still seemed distressed. I hung up citing the irrelevance of my presence in the phone call.

Then she called that night and didn't want to hang up so fell asleep on video-call, said she liked me in ten different forms and strengths, apologised for being a 'red flag,' and suggested I visit in September when I'm in Germany with a friend (during a period I know is intensely busy for her) because 'it's important to me.'

And then today she says she's booking a plane ticket to visit this coming weekend, and could she stay with me.

So all in all... an emotional roller-coaster but.... a success? I'm gonna say a success. Though I'm still a bit confused tbh.

Hey, this is great! Definitely a success; I’m happy for you, TD1.

[TD1]

Sooo, more of a not-a-success.

She came to talk it over in person, and in the interlude had decided 'no' to the relationship thing.

I told her I'd break off communicating for a week or two after she got back to Germany, then get back to her concerning whether I'd still be visiting her with the others in October. That felt an adequate length of time to get my head straight.

Anyway, we had a great (if often bittersweet) weekend hiking/socialising, she said she loved me, got on a bus in floods of tears, and despite my asking for space called me the next night.

I didn't notice the call, so she sent a huge text.

She apologised for calling, but she'd been thinking and wanted to clarify that it was all a 'head decision' not a 'heart decision.' There was the distance, and she was scared of the label 'relationship.' She missed me.

I responded briefly, telling her I didn't care about the label, just about her seeing other men; concluding with 'we can talk about October in a week or so.'

Cue another huge message. She didn't want to see other people, she'd always wanted to keep in contact with me but the label 'relationship' came with 'social pressure,' etc. She concluded that she didn't know if it would work because of the distance, said the weekend had shown her how she'd like it, 'but yeah a week or two will probably give us an idea of what is best.'

So yepppp, I somehow went from a saddening but definite 'no' back into a resounding 'maybe.' Wonder when I'll get off probation? Hah.

Edit: Oh, and there were two further messages afterwards which she deleted. I'd give a pretty penny to read them.

Edit edit: I changed my number on Whatsapp, she assumed to block/avoid her, sent a voicenote in tears saying she wants to try long distance and has done so since Sunday.

Soooo... we're back to success? I don't even know any more 

[Loud Whispers]

Relationship but no relationship?

[TD1]

Schrödingers relationship.

Edit: Actually, she seems to be under a considerable amount of strain.
Gonna call her tonight and straighten things out.

Edit edit: Oh, also, one of my close friends is her friend too. Except I found out over the weekend that he'd been desperately in love with her and she'd turned him down. And that was the reason he'd been ignoring my messages for the past fortnight.

So I guess I lost a friend over this? Heh.

[ChairmanPoo]

I don't like it, but I said my piece before. In the end its up to you. I might be too cynical

[McTraveller]

Just got back from vacation, but I've been like really easily angered literally since getting off the airplane.  I thought it was just lack of sleep, but it's continued on to today, even after a nice night in my own bed.

[martinuzz]

Sigh. It's this time of the decade again. I fear I need to have my mom submitted into psychiatric ward again.

[nenjin]

*snip*

I can relate. The kids call it a "situationship" these days. Something more than a friendship but less than a real relationship.

I've been doing an on again off again thing with someone just three hours away for the better part of a year. Same thing, basically. It's not a "heart decision" it's a "head decision" that they can't have a relationship. Although she has decently compelling reasons. Her life is kind of a clusterfuck. But it's the same story. They use words like "pressure" and "expectations." Which, yeah, those are part of a real relationship.

It's been exhausting. A couple months ago I finally got my head straight and realized she wasn't mine, never was and no matter what's been said between us the proof is in the pudding. I stopped texting her, stopped chatting her up at work. I felt like I'd finally gotten some real finality and closure. We left it with "well I suppose if we survive the distance we can see when the time is "right for you."" I've now been on other dates and been talking to a few different people and it's really changed my perspective. Helped me not idealize the concept of a relationship and deal with what's real and in front of me. "If it ain't real, don't sweat it."

But she keeps up the messaging. About every other week she reaches out and just says hi, thinking of you, etc......I'm not going to ghost her but I've kept my replies short and sweet. Because I've learned that trying to engage her in conversation or expecting replies is just a recipe for getting upset. So I just don't anymore. Especially when she says things like "when are you coming here again?" Because I've learned that if I tried to set a date where we could meet even for a few hours, I either wouldn't get a response or I'd get some waffling. I've started putting into it what I've been getting, finally.

Well, yesterday she messaged me to tell her that her father had died from a heart attack. And setting everything aside, I want to be there for her. She even said fanciful things like putting me up in a hotel room so I could be there for her.....but also admitted that's a pretty shitty way to spend time with someone, especially the first time we've had any alone time together.

So now I'm conflicted yet again. She's never been great about opening up and this is probably ties with the most traumatic things that have happened in her life. And there are knock on consequences of her father dying I won't even bother to get into. My pity, compassion and desire for her are again at war with the rational part of my brain that says getting invested in her has yet to really return anything, so why go there again? My solution is to offer support but not care if she takes it. All the weeks of angst between not talking and wondering what's up....I'm just done with that. Although I guess the fact I'm writing a novel here says there's still a smidge of that going on.

My advice to you man is.....let your HEART move on. Your HEAD can keep that communication alive but stop putting emotional energy into it. Say good morning or hi or have a chat but remove that emotional element from it. Because it may not ever get paid back. Relationships are just fucking tough, period. Especially when you're younger and emotions run high because we've all consumed a steady diet of romanticized relationship ideals from popular media and people are "living their best lives." As you get older, the moments tend to be less dramatic but the feelings involved are still complicated as fuck. Committing to a distance relationship is bananas. Both people have to want it so badly that neither rain nor sleet nor snow nor miles nor OPTIONS matters, they're willing to devote that much energy to making it work. And that makes for an often dysfunctional relationship because either people are taking up part of their lives for a relationship that should be spent elsewhere, or there's an imbalance in commitment from one side or another.

I don't claim to truly understand fucking anything about relationships. The last year has re-taught me that lesson. But I've learned that I'm in control of how I feel, given enough time to process those feelings. You can stay connected to someone but not put emotional weight on it. It's your expectations and wants that define how you're going to react to something. So if she's said it's not a relationship....then it's not a relationship and you shouldn't treat it like one. And that means not getting bent out of shape about her talking to other guys, much as I know that feels like a knife to the guts thinking about it. I haven't even told her I connected with someone else and even slept with them because....what's the point? We're not in a relationship! That's not something she is entitled to hear. Maybe YOU should try talking to some other women. And if you're hung up on "oh, but she was the right one and I'll never find someone else willing to look at me that way....." let that go too. It's not true and keeps you trapped by the fear of abandonment. Talk to a lot of people. You're not saying no to her. You're just saying yes to all the other opportunities out there. I am a monogamous guy but I've had a change of heart in a sense: I'll be monogamous with someone that actually wants to be exclusive and I want to be exclusive with. Otherwise, play the field. Don't put all your emotional eggs in one basket that doesn't have the "relationship" label firmly stuck on the front. It's OK to flirt with as many people as you want until you get that #relationship stamp on one of them.

We want that commitment but if they're not going to give you one, then don't commit to the fantasy of it. You'll just end up hurting yourself in the long run. Again, you're not saying no to her. You're just not saying yes to something she won't either. And you will find, after time, that yes your perception of them changes. The intensity dulls, the feelings both good and bad dull. You even start asking yourself questions like "Do I even still like her or do I just like the idea of her?" When you hit that point, you've hit a point of clarity and balance between the emotional and rational sides of you and can start really finding out what's true vs. what's fleeting.

[Il Palazzo]

I'm a situationship drama vampire and I approve these messages.

[scriver]

It's just dumb being afraid of the word relationship. Every relationship is a relationship. I'm in relationships to all of y'all too