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Author Topic: Things that made you sad today thread.  (Read 9756553 times)

Graknorke

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69435 on: January 24, 2014, 07:54:43 pm »

I don't understand what wierd was getting at. That the law does not line up with what makes sense?
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69436 on: January 24, 2014, 08:07:33 pm »

The law is defined by what the society wants, or views as sacro-sanct. Not what is objective or rational.

Eg, in many parts of the middle east, it is illegal for women to drive. It is that way for cultural reasons, not because women can't drive, or have some objective reason why they shouldn't be.

"Women driving is against the law, not a disorder".

The line of argument makes a presumption that is nonsense. I was point that out-- or trying to.

Because laws are created and maintained because of the society's prevailing views, and quite literally nothing else, failure to speak up about popularly supported, but objectively inconsionable practices only leads to a terrible future for everyone, even though (by the very nature of it being against the popular view) such speaking will be garanteed to make people angry.

If nobody in the middle east mentions that the laws prohibiting women driving have no rational basis, the views of the society will not change, and women will never drive.

The problem I have in trying to explain my views is that I often have positions created by observing and weighing many perspectives simultaneously. They can appear contradictory to others. This causes confusion-- but there is no way to fully convey the position without conveying all the perspectives used to arrive at it.

People hear "Oh, a perspective from X, therefor X!"  They don't understand that I am observing that perspective X belongs inside a greater logical subset, with more than just binary relationships.

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wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69437 on: January 24, 2014, 08:19:31 pm »

You know..

I really don't want to get caught up in yet another derail discussing this topic; it's the same one that derailed the other topic in a way I did not and still do not want.

Instead, here's an open invitation to just PM me if anyone has questions, so this won't happen again.
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Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69438 on: January 24, 2014, 08:22:05 pm »

The thing about playing devil's advocate is that you exhaust other people arguing against your position, and then you say "well, you didn't convince me of anything!  I was just playing devil's advocate."
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Vattic

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69439 on: January 24, 2014, 08:25:23 pm »

Accused pedophiles will be burned at the stake. Those who burn are confirmed pedophiles, and those that don't were wrongfully accused.
Words are difficult.
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69440 on: January 24, 2014, 08:28:12 pm »

More, the position I hold derives from taking some parts from "position A", and some parts from "apparently diametrically opposed position B", and combining them into a position that is neither A nor B, but based on both.

For a literary analogy to this, there's the famous "blind men and an elephant" parable.

The blind men each bicker and quarrel over the nature of the elephant; the king sees the whole animal.

My attempts to play devil's advocate are attempts to make people let go of the tail, to feel the trunk. Then they can come to realize that "elephant" is more than what they see themselves.

I mention what the man at the trunk finds, to point out that the "No, tail is what I see!" Is not the whole picture. It does not mean I see only trunk. I see both tail, and trunk. ;)


And to stay on topic:

That people consistently, and often angrily refuse to see more, even when guided, makes me sad.

Very very sad.  The world is a complex and wonderful place. It demands complex levels of appreciation and understanding.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 08:40:04 pm by wierd »
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Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69441 on: January 24, 2014, 08:40:26 pm »

Maybe you should just say what you think is the truth.  Then people will be a lot less angry at you.  As-is you're assuming that you're right and leaving people to argue with a false position simply because of your assumption that you're right.  If you're wrong, then they have to argue against both your fake position and your real position, which is fucking exhausting.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69442 on: January 24, 2014, 08:42:45 pm »

That's a fair cop.

I'll try to do better. 
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69443 on: January 24, 2014, 09:09:05 pm »

It's been my observation that this happens when something is seen as abhorrent, and thus "unthinkable!"

If something is "unthinkable!", they can't contemplate it in other terms. The emotion rules the roost.

The idea that a person may have a preference for non-consentual "relations", and yet not actually be a rapist, (and instead get their kicks through some other, harmless form such as media or literature) is "Unthinkable! That's monsterous! No NORMAL person would do that, you are arguing nonsense! OMG!"  They react with severe mental violence to any and all attempts to make them see that their position on the matter may be extreme.

Leaving them alone to that extreme view only results in their collecting together, and reinforcing each other's views, meanwhile the non-rapist "rapist" ends up with every safe and harmless outlet systematically removed out from under them, and have every facet of society say that no normal person would ever harbor such impulses or thoughts. -- implicity telling them that they are sick, or unthinkably deviant.

That's exactly what the homosexual community has spent the better part of a century trying to overcome. One of the weapons they have been using is spreading awareness, and demonstrating being gay in public in opposition to the "OMG! Deviancy!" Reaction of society. Gay-day at walt disney word, et al.

Being gay does not hurt anyone. It is thus not unthinkable.

Being a non-rapist who has rape fetishism hurts no one.

Being a non-molestor pedophile hurts no one.

The problem isn't with those people. The problem comes from refusing to let go of the emotional "OMG! Unthinkable!" Reaction.

That's what I see.

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Tiruin

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69444 on: January 24, 2014, 09:13:15 pm »

-Noooope-
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 09:15:56 pm by Tiruin »
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Sirus

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69445 on: January 24, 2014, 09:14:57 pm »

I've lost track of how many times people have said "let's drop this topic" only to continue it. It gets rather irritating.
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Tiruin

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69446 on: January 24, 2014, 09:15:44 pm »

Eep :x
Didn't see that. Sorry! Edited out.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69447 on: January 24, 2014, 11:01:43 pm »

Not only that, but it is extremely common for someone to get convicted of a crime that is under the same umbrella as an extremely severe one and get treated as if they committed the severe offense. For example, sex offender registries (which have been pretty definitively proven to due absolutely fucking nothing to prevent sex offenses) often contain persons who committed "crimes" like being naked in one's own home (man sleeps naked, goes into his kitchen, girl sees him through his window), public urination (a valid sanitation issue, but usually non-sexual), dating someone a year younger than them (several states, most infamously California, do not have a "close in age" exception to their statutory rape laws, and thus 17 year old boys dating 15 year old girls become guilty of a felony if they continue a physical relationship after their 18th birthday), or accidentally seeing someone through their window (girl gets out of shower with blinds open, boy sees her from sidewalk.)

That doesn't include busybodies going to great lengths to "expose" a non-existant relationship, such as photo lab techs having parents arrested for pictures of underdressed babies and toddlers (after a bath, potty training, or simply leaving the kid's clothes off because it's a hot day), extremely sloppy "therapists" that manufacture "repressed" memories, or parents that gravely misinterpret a situation because of the current scare (the "day care abuse" panic in the 90s is an excellent example.) 
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Tack

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69448 on: January 25, 2014, 05:42:58 am »

Woah. I see something inflammatory and probably hurting the feelings of someone sitting on a computer somewhere.
Therefore I must add my two cents.

This isn't entirely well thought out, so it may need some translating, but:

1. Gay.
So far through research and trial-and-error we have ascertained that a person's sexual orientation is usually genetically caused, and is usually not affected by upbringing and how much the parents wants them to be gay or not.
Likewise, being in a gay relationship does not seem to be harmful or psychologically damaging to either of the participants, except for the larger incidences of blood borne diseases amongst male homosexual partners. This has been combated with some pretty rigorous sex-ed, but only in certain countries or states.
So, whilst homosexuality in some places could be bad for people, in today's society it is becoming less so.

2. Violent relationships.
Spoiler: Just in case (click to show/hide)
Essentially it comes down to: It's a fine but extremely well regulated line, and a smart person can still indulge in their fetishes without crossing that line.

3. Pedophilia.
This is the gut-punch of the entire story, because in current society it is mired in fear and loathing, and so is almost impossible to discuss frankly. But I'll attempt to do my best, so if this is a trigger, best you stop reading.
The only real allowances I can give on the situation is that it is likely that in a highly sexualized and well educated society it is likely that the legal age of consent will have reason to be dropped a few years. But certainly not many, and that still heavily lies upon tradition and stigma.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 06:37:22 am by Tack »
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Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #69449 on: January 25, 2014, 05:51:58 am »

I am sad because I stayed up late writing, I have literally 10 pages of stuff in a file on my desktop, and I'm still not really anywhere close to finished with the stuff for this forum game.

Fucking hell.  Need to get up early tomorrow.  Maybe if I'm a little bit more caffeinated and sleep-deprived, I'll be better at coming up with stories?
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".
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