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[Yoink]

I told my crush that I had a crush on her, and she basically said no. Normally I'd expand upon this a bit, but I really can't bring it up at the moment...

Sympathies, man. 
Look at it this way: you had the courage to say it! That's pretty badass, y'know. *high-five*

[EnigmaticHat]

We, finally, have severe misgivings about the inclusion of “Paraphilic Coercive
Disorder” in the appendix. Rape is a crime,
 not a disorder. Such behaviours can, of
course, be understood, but we disagree that such a pattern of behaviour could be
considered a disorder, and we would have grave concerns that such views may offer
a spurious and unscientific defence to a rapist in a criminal trial.

I can't quite find a definition for that (too much psych jargon). Are you guys sure it a synonym for "paedophile"? The only thing I got from Google was "Violent Sexual Predator"...

They are not looking to make violent sexual predators victims of mental health problems instead of punishing them for their crimes. Hence, "We, finally, have severe misgivings about the inclusion of 'Paraphilic Coercive Disorder' (people who would only enjoy sex through force,) in the appendix." Note: bold added for emphasis.

Spoiler: mildly NSFW conversation (click to show/hide)

I agree that that shouldn't be a disorder, although for perhaps different reasons.  There are plenty of people out there who have awful fetishes which cannot be practiced safely or consensually in real life.  And in general, those people go on to find weird porn sites, or try to date like minded people but even then never carry out their fetish in real life.  This includes people who can only enjoy forced sex.  There are ways for those people to satisfy themselves without rape.  And I would not classify those people as having a disorder.  And yes, I do believe that pedophiles can go on to live independent lives without harming children.  I personally believe that there are "ethical" pedophiles who will never come forward because our society hates pedophiles so much.

I don't personally believe that people are born rapists.  My impression is that most rapists are either selfish people who use their power to gain advantage of others (usually family members or people immediately beneath them in a workplace hierarchy, unfortunately) or people who have been raised in various ways (not necessarily their parents) to disregard the desires of women.  Focusing on people with strange desires is the wrong way of looking at it.

Or to put it differently, even if you did have "Paraphilic Coercive Disorder" or whatever, it wouldn't change the fact that you should be held responsible for your actions.  Everyone needs to learn to control their sexual desires.  Now, I'm all for a legal system that focuses on rehabilitation or prevention over punishment, but we don't have that legal system.  And giving rapists an exception would be very dangerous.

[Vector]

I'm not arguing either way, just explaining the legal reason that is currently overruling any more psychologically-oriented classification.

[AlleeCat]

On the subject of pedophillia:
I don't care if someone is attracted to small children. That's their thing, whatever. It's a completely different thing to act on those desires, however. I'm attracted to a lot of people, but I don't coerce them into having sex with me. I expect the same out of anyone who is attracted to anything. Just because someone is attracted to children doesn't make them a sexual predator. Just like being attracted to cute (adult) girls doesn't make me a rapist.

[wierd]

Aleecat:

(This is a devil's advocate)

It is also illegal to own, transfer, trade in, facilitate production of, or in any way simulate production of-- child pornography.

Eg, pictures of cartoon (cleary not even real people) minors engaging in pornographic activities will get you just as arrested and just as prosecuted in many localities. (The US is a sticker.)

Even the moral objector type postulated here will be punished if caught in possession of such material. (Again, even images that are clearly not real, and in which no child has ever been harmed in the production of.)

This and a number of other reasons I am loathe to discuss (given the rules of the forum, and recent occurrences here on the forum-- I really want to avoid creating or fanning a flameout again.) Are why I mentioned that the argument "X is illegal, not a disorder" has scary parallels with how homosexuality was treated 30 years ago. It too was considered "unimaginably bad" by a pretty sizable portion of society, and punished very harshly. The reason for the harshness is different (demonstrable harm is possble, VS "it's a crime against nature!"), but the same pattern of mental processing is being employed, which is why insane things like the "no, cartoon images are illegal too!" Issue come into being, and stay on the books.

This is not to say that I think such things are mental disorders; I am pointing out the flawed origin of the argument, and how it shapes the reality of the situation.

Mental health professionals need to be much more careful in the arguments they choose to tender, IMHO.  They DO have consequences.


I am going to evacuate from the thread for awhile until the topic changes. This is too hot, and flamable.

[GiglameshDespair]

Wierd: your devil's advocates rarely end well. If you feel that thsi is too flammable, why would you post something you seem to believe will cause an incendiary reaction? It does not seem wise.

More generally, it may be best to let the subject lie.

[wierd]

All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do thing.

(In other words, saying nothing allows the injustices of the society's actions to go unaddressed.  See that there is an injustice, and see a possible/probable cause of that injustice.)

But yes. I believe the topic has become too hot.

[Yoink]

SOME MEN JUST WANT TO WATCH THE FORUM BURN


I don't actually have a specific sad right now. My sad is that this is an entirely off-topic post.

[kaijyuu]

I'll pop in to say I'm (generally) impressed with the views expressed on this topic.


One thing I'll pipe in about specifically:

So how do we keep those awful lesbians from working in the lingerie departments (where they could be doing bra fittings)?

While this is an amusing thought, remember that those clothes fitters are doing fittings for every type of customer, not just the sexy ones. Some lesbians might consider that a cost they're willing to pay, but...

[AlleeCat]

I seem to have a unique view in that I feel like being attracted to children and having self control are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, in having this view I seem to have made someone I really care about think I'm a pedophile, and now she won't talk to me. I'm going to stop talking about this before I alienate even more people.

[wierd]

I know the feeling. I hope you can work it out with them.

[kaijyuu]

I seem to have a unique view in that I feel like being attracted to children and having self control are not mutually exclusive.

Not unique at all. And since this is on-topic sad thread material...

* kaijyuu hugs

[GiglameshDespair]

It's such a demonised thing you can't talk about it except to condemn or else it's automatically assumed that you're a paedophile, and once that starts you're in danger of being lynched, guilty or not.

[MrWillsauce]

Accused pedophiles will be burned at the stake. Those who burn are confirmed pedophiles, and those that don't were wrongfully accused.

[wierd]

And yet, that is precisely why it must be talked about.

See how hard the battle for alternative sexuality has been this century.

The guilt by association leads to bad places. Seeing the other side of a controversial argument, especially when your own views don't precisely align with it, and arguing for that other side's merits to be upheld in discussion can quickly lead to name calling and worse.

All the same, failure to speak up results in a worse world for everyone.

(That's why I still ponied up, despite my reservations.)