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Author Topic: Dragon Age: Origins  (Read 34083 times)

catoblepas

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2009, 06:15:51 pm »

Yeah, don't get me wrong, Bioware has made some games which I genuinely enjoy....just with the advertising campaign being so awful, I really can't buy a game like this until I get some indication that it isn't like what is being showed in advertisements like this. If I wanted a Lord of the Rings game, I'd buy one of those, if I wanted a Wheel of time Game I'd (not buy one because there are none), but I don't want to play a conglomeration of them whose only apparent selling point so far is that it has over the top bucketfuls of violence and sex with relatively little apparent original content.

I'll likely get a chance to try it out myself at any rate, since I have a friend who is buying it, but I don't think I'll be buying it unless it grossly exceeds my expectations.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 06:18:04 pm by catoblepas »
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Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2009, 07:54:04 pm »

In a capitalist society, 'Business' and 'Ethics' do not coexist. They exist in spite of each other.

That being said, I won't be buying this game, or any game made in the past three years, until I get a better computer.

That's not true at all.  The ethics of capitalism is to make money.  The ethics of a corporation is to do whatever it takes to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible.  And don't break the law.

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2009, 09:09:09 pm »

RPG developers need to hire writers that don't suck. I'm tired of playing the same characters in the same plot all wrapped up in a new and shiny package. Why use the same tired old setting? Some originality and innovation would be nice.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I've been getting less and less excited about gaming. The trailer for dragon age hasn't restored my faith at all. Watching scantily clad women run around in the snow doesn't give me much hope for intelligent game design.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2009, 09:48:32 pm »

Actually, I think it's the creation of new settings that is the problem. Once you create new settings with all this detail, you need to then come up with some plot, and the result is that this plot is heavily cliched.

Once you actually have a setting that people have played through a lot and are familiar with, you're going to have to innovate and play with the setting some more. You build onto that setting, differing it from the previous incarnations, until it becomes something foreign.
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Wiles

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2009, 10:44:59 pm »

Actually, I think it's the creation of new settings that is the problem. Once you create new settings with all this detail, you need to then come up with some plot, and the result is that this plot is heavily cliched.

Creating an original setting doesn't require a developer to use a clichéd plot, they end up with a clichéd plot because they are lousy storytellers and lack the imagination to come up with a good plot. And I wouldn't call Dragon Age's setting original, looks like another homogeneous fantasy setting to me.
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Sensei

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2009, 11:00:32 pm »

Let's play: how many creative-enough settings can Sensei come up in two minutes (I have a sports watch with a timer function).

World is recovering from RECENT apocalpyse (not mad max)

You are a member of the douchy noble class and ahve to maitnain your status as such

Aliens invaded in the renaissance (obviosuly right away, not as a bad answer to a mystery)

You are gang pressed into service with raiders, moral ambiguity balanced with personal serious risk ensues

World is entering magical environmental catastrophe

Gravity is undergoign serious problems after mages academy experiments

...I mean, come on. Most of those COULD be thrown away as expositions, but... I mean, two minutes! And most of these are decently creative enough. Hell, a writer who's being lazy and using cliches could use foreign or unpopular cliches instead- russian folklore, anyone? There's some fucked up shit there, without being the immature 'mature' nonsense.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 11:02:23 pm by Sensei »
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Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2009, 02:03:38 am »

The problem is that good (for definitions of good involving "open", "non-linear", "varied", etc) gameplay is generally antithetical to a good plot, for reasons that should become readily apparent on some thought. Similarly, a good plot (for definitions of good involving "coherent", "well-fucking-written", "not fucking inane", "not phoned in", etc) is pretty opposed to anything beyond running in a little line, killing cannon fodder in a generic way, with a pre-written character (of course, most of those games have both shit gameplay and a shit plot (I can't think of a single game with a "good" plot at the moment...).

If you have gameplay in which the player defines their own character, the poor bastards responsible for writing the plot have a rather daunting challenge, one that they seem to respond to with "oh fuck, let's just make it so fucking generic it won't fit any character, so at least it will be equal". If the player is further given any real ability to influence events, then they have to write up contingencies for every possible combination of choices, and then the dev studio has to have more voice acting done, they might need more artwork (counting textures and models as artwork), or just break it up so that all the possible actions are independent of one another, and thus don't really have any impact at all. So it's pretty understandable why you get great games like The Elder Scrolls series (and by extension fallout 3), that have such absolute shit plots: it's just not feasible to make a decent plot that fits every character imaginable (or even every rough archetype within which the player will almost inevitably fall) or takes into full account the myriad of things they might do if given actual freedom to influence the plot. At least in those cases, the story is only shoved because "well, there has to be a point to all this somewhere...", and the real attraction is the world and gameplay.

Now, Bioware actually did a good job with Mass Effect's story, if you consider the silly-yet-still-full-of-itself plot and cliched-and-often-outright-awkward dialogue as brilliant satire instead of a steaming pile of shit drama (I honestly do not know their intent, and merely choose for the sake of how great the game was otherwise (even with the obnoxious, consoletastic bullshit like always carrying four weapons, even when you can't hit the broad side of a fucking barn with three of them, the horrifically bad inventory management, the hyper-linearity of most areas, and the occasionally unresponsive controls, specifically automatically snapping to cover when trying to run around a corner or along a barrier, and pretty bad recognition of when a melee attack is appropriate, not to mention grenades clipping through walls and flying off the map...) that it was satire), but that's more an exception of what constitutes "good" gameplay: you don't really get to create your own character, you get to play around with a face editor, and then be either a stick-up-your-ass paradigm of space-cop-itude, a violently psychotic, corrupt space-cop, or both; you do actually have some apparent power of the course of the plot (ignoring the negligible effect the order in which you perform missions has), though most aren't fully realized within the scope of the game
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
and the gameplay is fairly repetitive over the course of a game (though still great, specifically on the highest difficulty, and it varies between runs based on the type of character you chose).

Now, for everyone complaining about sex and gore (I've not seen the trailers in question, as my internet is far too shitty to handle that, so I'll speak generally): if it's handle in a sane/appropriate manner, and backed up by strong gameplay, then I call it a positive inclusion. Not out of any inherent value in and of itself, but rather in that awkward and childish censorship is patently offensive, and shows a great deal of either cowardice (in bowing to the will of the kind of asshole who screams about it and starts lawsuits/bullshit legislation) and/or squeamishness central to the design process, neither of which are positive traits. It can also lead to hilarious fucked up things like what happens when you loot the armor off a raider in fallout 3, when the armor consists, say, of hotpants and a bra made of mininuke nosecones (actual armor in the game...), and the filthy raider is suddenly covered in a spotless white t-shirt and boxers, both of which are larger than the armor that was ostensibly over them... Now, when used as a central selling point, and coupled with terrible gameplay, then it's just a "LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME, TITTIES AND BLOOD TITTIES AND BLOOD!!!!1!!" gag to try to sell it to frattards and twelve year olds.

<toad-edited for some of its inappropriateness>
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 07:09:14 am by Toady One »
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Kagus

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2009, 02:20:53 am »

Heh, there's this one setting that I've had going around my head for some time...

It's basically a modern/semi-futuristic society, with the main point of interest being that everyone resides on giant chunks of land (or they could be manufactured.  Nothing against that, really) that are held aloft by giant energy cores within the main bulk of the "island".

These islands are connected together by bridges, and each island is basically a city.


That's the setting, here's the basic starting point for the plot;

The player works at some level of law enforcement (haven't put too much thought into their position, but something above just a cop).  The game starts off on a relatively normal day, and the player is walking around near the edge of the island (might be a day off or something).

Suddenly, someone screams.  The commotion draws attention to the point of the distressed person's focus, which is a nearby connected island city.  The city is slowly, silently, starting to lose altitude.

As the island picks up speed, the bridges connected to it are severed, sending the people on it plummeting into the cloud layer that obscures whatever is below.  The island city itself follows soon after.


The cause of the island falling was the core being shut down/destroyed by a terrorist group.  The player is called in to aid with the investigation.


Now, this whole thing came about as I was thinking of a different type of game mechanic...  Basically, I was tired of how games tend to put such heavy restrictions on what you can contribute to a conversation.  My idea was to allow for "freeform" conversation, by binding a set of keys to certain common phrases.  "Yes", "No", "Help", "Get Down", so on.  The player would then be able to press these keys at any time, and the NPC's nearby would respond accordingly.

It would require an intense amount of programming and voice work, but it would allow for a dynamic conversation model that paved the way for some rather interesting events.  Wait too long after someone has said something to you, and they'll try and get your attention.  Confuse them by answering inappropriately or disjointedly, or annoy them by interrupting their sentences.  I even thought about "boy who cried wolf" scenarios popping up if the player abused certain commands.


I then expanded on the story aspect, by trying to add a choice system to the mix.  There are numerous different groups reacting to this event, and you should be given the opportunity to join up with and help any one of them.  I'd also try to alleviate the good/evil dilemma by giving every group specific morals, and by having each one congratulate and thank the player for the good deed they are doing by helping their particular group.

These groups could be anything from your own agency, to the terrorist group, to an agent of a lesser agency who is trying to get at the heart of things by bypassing the bureaucracy, to the dude who has started a cult trying to arrange a mass parachute/glider exodus to the land below in search of salvation.


Now, I don't know about you...  But that's a setting I'd like to see.

Wiles

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2009, 03:53:02 pm »

Quote
The problem is that good (for definitions of good involving "open", "non-linear", "varied", etc) gameplay is generally antithetical to a good plot, for reasons that should become readily apparent on some thought. Similarly, a good plot (for definitions of good involving "coherent", "well-fucking-written", "not fucking inane", "not phoned in", etc) is pretty opposed to anything beyond running in a little line, killing cannon fodder in a generic way

I disagree. Non-linear games suffer from their own pitfalls. They tend to be rather repetitive and while fun at first they usually lose their appeal after a while. Another problem is that since you are given free reign to do as you please they tend to suffer from lousy balance, erring on the side of way too bloody easy. Eventually the game gets boring, you become so powerful that all you have to do to defeat your enemies is to flex your mighty pectoral muscles. I think somewhere in between linear and non-linear is best.

Also, I don't really think non-linear game play is a good excuse for bad writing. I'm not expecting James fucking Joyce out of a video game, but I would at least like it to not suck. Dialogue is often so bad that the writing is on par with the shit you'd see on a twilight fanfic site or something.
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Neruz

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2009, 07:15:29 pm »

Planescape: Torment proves that non-linear gameplay is no excuse at all for bad writing, and that good writing and non-linear gameplay is fucking awesome.

Servant Corps

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2009, 07:22:06 pm »

I believe Planetscape was totally lineral. There were many different paths you can take, but it all leads to the same endpoint.
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Neruz

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2009, 07:36:48 pm »

I believe Planetscape was totally lineral. There were many different paths you can take, but it all leads to the same endpoint.

For a start there's no t in Planescape, and there are somewhere in the realm of a dozen different endings.

Servant Corps

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2009, 07:47:02 pm »

However, I believe that all those "endings" lead to the same ending point.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2009, 07:56:07 pm »

No, i'm absolutey sure there's at least 4 distinct endings, since that's how many times i've played through the game and that's how many endings i've gotten.

Sensei

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Re: Dragon Age: Origins
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2009, 08:50:29 pm »

Does it matter, conceptually? No. It's a writing choice. They CHOSE to have all the branches come to converge, there's no reason they are forced to.

Speaking of interesting worlds that lend themselves to stories, what was that anime where the world has broken up into floating rocks (basically an asteroid field, except there's atmoshpere and all the gravity is in the same direction)? That's a setting I really like. Or Crimson Skies? In that game, all the united states had seceded into their own nations after the war, creating chaos, and all the conceptual USAF and Luftwaffe planes were realized in the following war. Again, interesting setting that is its own gameplay and story hook.

Ideally, I think most good, successful games need a plot hook, a gameplay mechanic hook, and probably a technological hook (although it's not totally necessary- see sports games). Usually all of which could go on a box. See:

Dwarf Fortress
Gameplay: Build whatever you want! Kill things with magma floods!
Plot: Randomized stories! A new story every time!
Technological: Procedurally generated anything! Break your foe's every knuckle one by one!

Halo
Gameplay: Shields and health! Revolutionary controls! Guerilla warfare!
Plot: You're on HAAAAALOOOOOO!
Technological: Stunning realistic graphics! (that's what it says on the box anyways)

Worms
Gameplay: Destroy your enemies and the environment!
Plot: Tons of crazy weapons!
Technological: See above

Mechwarrior
Gameplay: Customize your mech!
Plot: People hate eachother in space (not a big thing to put on the box here)
Technological: Hundreds of weapons! Large environments, tons of enemies on screen!

Neverwinter Nights:
Gameplay: Dungeons and dragons on your computer! Plays as DM and create campaigns!
Plot: Save Neverwinter! Write your own stories!
Technological: Explore huge worlds!

...and so on. You can do this for most games, and you should if you're creating a game. Not that there's never room for computer ballsports or board games, nor mindless shoot-em-ups or the occassional big tech showcase. But few of those become truly remembered, even if there's room for market success.
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