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[Putnam]

Paying money for champions allows one to get runes faster, which gives one an advantage. It also gives them access to more champions than one who does not pay, which is also an advantage.

[SalmonGod]

Paying money for champions allows one to get runes faster

What?  How?  You mean just by allowing you to focus your IP exclusively on buying runes?  I suppose you could spin it that way... but only applicable early in the lifespan of an account.

It also gives them access to more champions than one who does not pay, which is also an advantage.

Well, sure... again for someone who is extremely new to the game and hasn't built up enough IP to purchase a handful of champions they know they like to play, yes.  But at that level of play, I'd consider that a very negligible advantage.  I had easily over a dozen champions bought and a couple pages worth of runes (solely via IP) before I really had locked down my preferred playstyles and character types.

[Putnam]

Also, the fact that its main competitor actually gives you all of the gameplay for free from the moment you open it makes it kinda scummy when said competitor is less popular.

[EnigmaticHat]

Also, the fact that its main competitor actually gives you all of the gameplay for free from the moment you open it makes it kinda scummy when said competitor is less popular.

That really isn't about the model, its everything to do with the timing of each game's release (LoL survives heavily on a Facebook-esque "all my friends are on it" advantage, which it got by getting into the MOBA business early and, you know, not being a mod for another game) and with the difference in the experience that a new user gets when they first log on to the game.  They're both horrible to new users but DOTA is far worse on so many levels.

[SalmonGod]

I'm by no means one to normally defend LoL.... there are things about it that really piss me off, and I very rarely play it anymore.  I honestly regret ever touching it and getting involved.

But it's the first MOBA I ever played (I can't use the term MOBA without mentioning how stupid I think it is), and while I found major flaws very early on with the game, it did make me interested in the genre.  So I've tried most of LoL's competitors, desperately hoping one will come along that does away with the things I don't like about LoL... but every single one has had one or both of these major flaws:  either significantly more punishing gameplay than LoL (stricter meta, harsher snowballing, etc) or a complete lack of flavor (I admit that I love how much fun Riot has with LoL's character and skin designs).

So... I wouldn't call it scummy on that basis alone.  There's more to it than level of freeness... else all commercial games could be considered scummy, right?

And yeah... Ninja'd by EnigmaticHat... network effect is an extremely powerful force, and the main reason I've played LoL half as much as I have.

[Putnam]

Also, the fact that its main competitor actually gives you all of the gameplay for free from the moment you open it makes it kinda scummy when said competitor is less popular.

That really isn't about the model, its everything to do with the timing of each game's release (LoL survives heavily on a Facebook-esque "all my friends are on it" advantage, which it got by getting into the MOBA business early and, you know, not being a mod for another game) and with the difference in the experience that a new user gets when they first log on to the game.  They're both horrible to new users but DOTA is far worse on so many levels.

...No it isn't. It really isn't. The tutorials are amazing, you can demo heroes in-client (which includes trying out cosmetics) and the UI actually gives you some basic goddamned info that the League UI fails to (like, say, what the numbers on this skill will be next level).

Of course, all except the last are on the new UI/engine they're coming out with fairly soon.

But it's the first MOBA I ever played (I can't use the term MOBA without mentioning how stupid I think it is), and while I found major flaws very early on with the game, it did make me interested in the genre.  So I've tried most of LoL's competitors, desperately hoping one will come along that does away with the things I don't like about LoL... but every single one has had one or both of these major flaws:  either significantly more punishing gameplay than LoL (stricter meta, harsher snowballing, etc) or a complete lack of flavor (I admit that I love how much fun Riot has with LoL's character and skin designs).

1. Which MOBAs have stricter meta than League, goddamn

2.

So... I wouldn't call it scummy on that basis alone.  There's more to it than level of freeness... else all commercial games could be considered scummy, right?

Definitely not the only basis.

(Riot's Pendragon took down dota-allstars.com, replaced it with an ad for lol, they claim to this day that they invented the idea for Teemo despite this being suspiciously similar)

[Eric Blank]

This argument is not of the happy variety. Take it somewhere else.

The pasture around my house was swarming in birds today. They were good birds

[EnigmaticHat]

Also, the fact that its main competitor actually gives you all of the gameplay for free from the moment you open it makes it kinda scummy when said competitor is less popular.

That really isn't about the model, its everything to do with the timing of each game's release (LoL survives heavily on a Facebook-esque "all my friends are on it" advantage, which it got by getting into the MOBA business early and, you know, not being a mod for another game) and with the difference in the experience that a new user gets when they first log on to the game.  They're both horrible to new users but DOTA is far worse on so many levels.

...No it isn't. It really isn't. The tutorials are amazing, you can demo heroes in-client (which includes trying out cosmetics) and the UI actually gives you some basic goddamned info that the League UI fails to (like, say, what the numbers on this skill will be next level).

Yeah, that doesn't change the fact that DOTA is incredibly hard to learn, keeps on exploits because they "enhance competitive play" (WTF is the jungle NPC code and why hasn't it been gutted?  Seriously, read the article on how the jungle in DOTA works and tell me that's somehow OK), and there's no surrender option.  Even though competitive teams routinely surrender.

Also, all the character demos in the world doesn't make up for the fact that DOTA heroes are capable of some ridiculous shit and are mainly represented through pictures a new player is not going to easily recognize.  LoL, and every other MOBA ever, fits its characters into easily understandable categories but DOTA makes no effort.  That variety is part of what makes competitive DOTA so fun to watch but holy shit is it obnoxious to walk into lane with someone only to discover that your laning foe is perpetually invisible, or passively creates illusions whenever he attacks, or any other number of bizarre things.

[Putnam]

Also, all the character demos in the world doesn't make up for the fact that DOTA heroes are capable of some ridiculous shit and are mainly represented through pictures a new player is not going to easily recognize.  LoL, and every other MOBA ever, fits its characters into easily understandable categories but DOTA makes no effort.  That variety is part of what makes competitive DOTA so fun to watch but holy shit is it obnoxious to walk into lane with someone only to discover that your laning foe is perpetually invisible, or passively creates illusions whenever he attacks, or any other number of bizarre things.

did you just say that the ability to look at and try out (while being able to control the enemies) every single one of a hero's abilities won't teach you the hero's abilities

[Rolan7]

Demigod's the best MOBA /derail

[Orange Wizard]

Demigod's the best MOBA /derail

Yeah, but HoN is better.

[Putnam]

poor HoN...

[EnigmaticHat]

Also, all the character demos in the world doesn't make up for the fact that DOTA heroes are capable of some ridiculous shit and are mainly represented through pictures a new player is not going to easily recognize.  LoL, and every other MOBA ever, fits its characters into easily understandable categories but DOTA makes no effort.  That variety is part of what makes competitive DOTA so fun to watch but holy shit is it obnoxious to walk into lane with someone only to discover that your laning foe is perpetually invisible, or passively creates illusions whenever he attacks, or any other number of bizarre things.

did you just say that the ability to look at and try out (while being able to control the enemies) every single one of a hero's abilities won't teach you the hero's abilities

No, that's not nearly what I said.  Most people don't play a hundred practice games to learn every character when they start playing.  You aren't thinking like a new player, you're thinking like, I don't know, a guy who watched competitive and then tried to play.

You're a new player.  You heard a bunch of people on the internet talking about this DOTA thing and its free so you try it out.  You play a few vs. AI games.  Then you boot up a game versus players.  You see some the picture for one of your opponents is some guy with straw in his mouth.  You are not prepared for what is about to happen.

Whereas if you go, say, bottom lane in League you're pretty damn sure what you're going to meet there.

[Putnam]

The hero preview isn't a bot game, it's a neat little thing with cheats on the left where you can look through all of a hero's abilities in 30 seconds and load up a new one in 10.

Also, you're sorta ignoring the fact that a new player also won't know all of League's champions and their roles. Not just that, but unlike in Dota, they won't be able to just click on the enemy and look over their skills.

[Yoink]

This argument is not of the happy variety. Take it somewhere else.

What he said.
Fucking hell, guys.