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[dakarian]

Why hello Cheeetar.   

You seemed to have missed a few of those questions Alex threw at you.  Mind answering them? I'll rephrase

1)If Mr. Person flipped town, why would Panda, Dakarian, and Josh be scum?  I hope you aren't just using "They went after Mr. Person" after all.

Do you think all lurkers would be town and thus should not be killed?

Do you feel that Dakarian is not genuinely scumhunting?

For that matter, why would Josh evoke his power if he was scum? Note that no one knew the power existed, nevermind that he had it, before he spoke up.



Please ignore Alex and Person for a moment and answer those questions.

[JoshuaFH]

If Alexhans is scum and Person is town, Alex would've hammered Person.  There was no reason for him NOT to do so since it would've messed up Toony.  Even if it didn't CLEAR Alex, it would help him by disrupting the town.

Given that, it's crazy to think that Alex is scum without Person also being scum.

As such, either Alex is town or BOTH are scum.  As such, if you believe they are both scum, hitting Person first is best, rather than hitting Alex.

Can you explain this again for me Dak? My reasoning is that I'm not sure if Alex had that much foresight at the time, and might've viewed hammering MP to be inconsistent with his defense of him earlier.

[dakarian]

Just did an unofficial vote count.  Also Alex seems silly enough to kill himself off so to stop that flat:

Vote Archangel

I just did a run of the votes and the unofficial vote count would be

Mr.Person: Archangel, Boksi, Redwarrior0
Boksi: Mephansteras,
Archangel: Pandarsenic, webadict, Mr.Person, Dakarian
Redwarrior0: Zaithemaster
ToonyMan:
Alexhans: Diakron, Cheeetar, ToonyMan, chaoticjosh
brothernature: Alexhans


So Arc and Alex is tied.

Now, Mr. person, I'll ask you since arch is still on your Do Kill list, what are we still waiting for from Arch when it comes to being sure he's killable?  I'm willing to wait, but I'll want a reason beyond "let him speak more".  He needs a topic/question to discuss after all.

[dakarian]

If Alexhans is scum and Person is town, Alex would've hammered Person.  There was no reason for him NOT to do so since it would've messed up Toony.  Even if it didn't CLEAR Alex, it would help him by disrupting the town.

Given that, it's crazy to think that Alex is scum without Person also being scum.

As such, either Alex is town or BOTH are scum.  As such, if you believe they are both scum, hitting Person first is best, rather than hitting Alex.

Can you explain this again for me Dak? My reasoning is that I'm not sure if Alex had that much foresight at the time, and might've viewed hammering MP to be inconsistent with his defense of him earlier.

The argument that Alex is scum relies on him being skillful enough to understand his own meta.  Thus we can't take him for being unskilled.

It also relies on the idea that Alex is willing to do scumtells and use his meta+hammer as coverfire. 


Now if Alex is scum then he KNOWS Person is town (assuming he is) and KNOWS toony is town (I agree with Person.. it would be the gamble of the century to stage THAT if Toony/Alex were scum).
 The bet was "If Person flips town then Toony is guilty".  Toony pulled back and it almost ruined him so he pushed forward.

Now if Alex hammered Person, he would've gotten a townie kill.  He would've also removed some of the suspicion on him since it proved he was right and Person was innocent.  He could blame killing a townie on "Leaving a bet is scummy, and toony's pull back showed he wasn't ready.  He expected me to get squemish but I delivered and proved I was right and toony was wrong."

Alex would gain cred while Toony would lose his at worst.  At best, we'd turn on toony and leave Alex alone. 

He'd have a ton to gain for flinging the hammer.  Not flinging it would mean ditching the bet and nearly getting himself killed..for what? 

Can it still be an EPIC RUSE?  Perhaps, but we'll need to see more of him to keep that from turning into pure WIFOM mayham.  We can't complete the story in Day 1, only set the pieces.  It is, however, a crazy idea compared to say both being scum or  ALL of them being town.

Thus why I can't see Arch scum/Person town anymore.

[Leafsnail]

MOD: You can analyze the quick chats and this chat.  With that, you can tell whether that chat was meant for this game or another.  If it's for this game and Diakron posted what was meant for mafia quick chat, I believe we'll need to look into whether the talk in BM3 is a violation AND I question whether it has ruined this game.

If it was meant for another game, then we can just let it be and put it to the side.

Sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you mean, I haven't been following BM3.  Thanks for the unofficial votecount though, there were some serious WoTs to dig through in the last page.

Deadline in about 28 hours.

And, by the way, there are 4 mafia members.  I didn't make it clear enough in the OP, sorry.

[JoshuaFH]

If Alexhans is scum and Person is town, Alex would've hammered Person.  There was no reason for him NOT to do so since it would've messed up Toony.  Even if it didn't CLEAR Alex, it would help him by disrupting the town.

Given that, it's crazy to think that Alex is scum without Person also being scum.

As such, either Alex is town or BOTH are scum.  As such, if you believe they are both scum, hitting Person first is best, rather than hitting Alex.

Can you explain this again for me Dak? My reasoning is that I'm not sure if Alex had that much foresight at the time, and might've viewed hammering MP to be inconsistent with his defense of him earlier.

The argument that Alex is scum relies on him being skillful enough to understand his own meta.  Thus we can't take him for being unskilled.

It also relies on the idea that Alex is willing to do scumtells and use his meta+hammer as coverfire. 


Now if Alex is scum then he KNOWS Person is town (assuming he is) and KNOWS toony is town (I agree with Person.. it would be the gamble of the century to stage THAT if Toony/Alex were scum).
 The bet was "If Person flips town then Toony is guilty".  Toony pulled back and it almost ruined him so he pushed forward.

Now if Alex hammered Person, he would've gotten a townie kill.  He would've also removed some of the suspicion on him since it proved he was right and Person was innocent.  He could blame killing a townie on "Leaving a bet is scummy, and toony's pull back showed he wasn't ready.  He expected me to get squemish but I delivered and proved I was right and toony was wrong."

Alex would gain cred while Toony would lose his at worst.  At best, we'd turn on toony and leave Alex alone. 

He'd have a ton to gain for flinging the hammer.  Not flinging it would mean ditching the bet and nearly getting himself killed..for what? 

Can it still be an EPIC RUSE?  Perhaps, but we'll need to see more of him to keep that from turning into pure WIFOM mayham.  We can't complete the story in Day 1, only set the pieces.  It is, however, a crazy idea compared to say both being scum or  ALL of them being town.

Thus why I can't see Arch scum/Person town anymore.

I see, I suppose that does make sense.

I took alittle time to step back and reread some more, and I have to say, as much as I don't like Alex's attitude, and alot of his reasoning that goes along the lines of "Oh, well, I meant something else!", I may have been jumpy and it might be advantageous to not rush here, and he does sound sincere.

Unvote

I'd like to hear what ToonyMan has to say about all this.

[Mephansteras]

Oh, gods, I just had to read through 12 pages of WoTs. Sorry for not being around this weekend, I had a lot to do and barely had time to tally up the votecounts in Paranormal and Wizard Duel, let alone read anything. (I always feel bad when I'm not even up to speed on what's going on in my own mafias)

Anyway, now that I've had a chance to look through things.

1) I think Alexhans and Mr.Person are town. There are a lot of insults going around, but they've made good points and it just doesn't seem likely that they're both scum working together. And, as has been pointed out a lot, it makes no sense for Alex to be scum and not Mr.Person.

2) There are a lot of accusations that Pandarsenic is active lurking. This rings false to me, since he has been putting up some decent analysis. I haven't agreed with most of it, but that doesn't mean he isn't scum hunting. He just hasn't been throwing up the walls of text that other people have been. To be honest, if it wasn't webadict doing most of the accusing I'd probably think it was a scum attack. As it is...I don't know. He could be honestly trying to help or he could be scum trying to put in the barest amount of work to seem town without really scum hunting.

3) Have all of you completely forgotten about brothernature??? Seriously, in all the lists of "who's scum" he seems to have conveniently fallen off the list. Boksi, I see, is still on it for lurking, but why not brothernature? He's been even more silent and unhelpful then anyone else. Alex still has his vote on him, it seems, but even he hasn't exactly mentioned him very often.

4) RedWarrior0, you're still jumping on bandwagons and using everyone else's arguments. It strikes me as scummy.

5) Archangel started off lurking as always, but has really started to do more. Could still be scum, but at least he's putting in an effort to play the game.

Otherwise, we've got lots of arguments and lots of insults flying around. I think we have a town-fight going on here and I don't that's helping us at all.

So...here is my thought. I think we've got an experienced mafia player running a bunch of quiet/new players and stirring up a whole bunch of controversy that's nicely hiding the rest of the scum. If they can get Alex to hammer a townie and then the rest of us to quick-lynch another townie, then they've started to make up for Josh's power giving us a confirmed townie. My guess is Dakarion is the ring-leader, since he's been pushing for a hammer of Mr.Person. ToonyMan is another option, since he could easily use his craziness to stir stuff up and keep people's attention on him and whomever he is attacking. Not sure if that kind of gambit is his style, though.

For now, I'm going to unvote and vote brothernature. I don't like how he has been lurking so much and I really don't like that he seems to have been pretty much forgotten.

Webadict, could you please give us an analysis of what you think? You're our confirmed townie but everything you've said so far keeps being buried in the WoTs that Alex and Dakarian have been throwing up. I gather that you think Alex and Mr.Person are town, and that Archangel is scum. Do you still think he's scum? What about the rest of the lurkers?

[Mr.Person]

Well, Meph, we've kinda been giving you a free pass too, but oh well, you're here now.

Yes, I want to hear Brothernature, Boski, Pandarsenic, and ideally more from Meph. You guys have been quiet, very very quiet.

@Dakarian:

1. About the mistake in that post, I made it at 3 in the morning, so yeah.

2. Eh, I use a lot of sarcasm and shit all the time. It's reeeeeeal helpful. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but since you do, and it would make an otherwise clear post quite confusing, I'll try and stop.

3. This only just struck me, but I haven't explained why I think Alexhans is town to me mostly because nobody's asked. No, that's not an acceptable excuse. Hell, I bet you somebody DID ask and I just missed it.

@Meph: WoT's are good things, don't complain

@Everybody: I'm thinking we might need a day extension. Stop groaning, I'm serious. We're going to have a day and a half to cram in pretty much an entire day's worth of content. All the tunnel vision has robbed us of information on over half the town.

[dakarian]

Trying for a quicker post here. 

3) Have all of you completely forgotten about brothernature???

*blush* yes, yes we have. 

So...here is my thought. I think we've got an experienced mafia player running a bunch of quiet/new players and stirring up a whole bunch of controversy that's nicely hiding the rest of the scum. If they can get Alex to hammer a townie and then the rest of us to quick-lynch another townie, then they've started to make up for Josh's power giving us a confirmed townie. My guess is Dakarion is the ring-leader, since he's been pushing for a hammer of Mr.Person. ToonyMan is another option, since he could easily use his craziness to stir stuff up and keep people's attention on him and whomever he is attacking. Not sure if that kind of gambit is his style, though.

I stopped the hammer push on Person a good while ago actually.  I was pushing Alex till Person showed how messy the Alexscum/Persontown is and I can't bring myself to do an alexscum/personscum when Person is still neutral.

Do note, though, that the final pieces that removed the reasons to attack them only JUST showed up.  We had to slog through and post up those 12 pages of insults and WOTs just to get to this position.  I'm actually looking forward to work now just so I can keep away from the comp long enough to think . 

I'm not convinced about Archangel though, but about now we need to refresh why we think who is what.  As such, I'll need to go through those archives again.  For now, my vote on Arch is more to keep Alex off of majority than anything else.

As for me being the ringleader.. understandable.  If any of my argument is flawed or misleading, I'll gladly answer them. 


[/quote]

Lastly, I'd like to add with the Call to Web:  Along with the lurkers, how about an anal on Panda, Meth and Cheetar?  It'll be good to get an idea on how those three look or if we need to apply more pressure there too.

[dakarian]

@Dakarian:

1. About the mistake in that post, I made it at 3 in the morning, so yeah.

Just making sure you keep it in mind.  I nearly got lynched in a game due to a small slip up that got blown up. 

2. Eh, I use a lot of sarcasm and shit all the time. It's reeeeeeal helpful. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but since you do, and it would make an otherwise clear post quite confusing, I'll try and stop.

It just depends on who you are using it to.  'Sarcasm and shit' is to insight emotion and recklessness in the target.  It's great in attacks when you want to shake someone up.  It's ugly when you are trying to get your real point across to others (i.e. when defending or when trying to gather up the townies). 

Just know what tools you are using and why you are using it.  Look at your 3 paragraphs to me and compare them to the WOT Alex posted after. 

Bah, note the 3 paragraphs compared to the other 30 pages!  As I said, this would be a MUCH MUCH different game if those 3 paragraphs showed up earlier.

3. This only just struck me, but I haven't explained why I think Alexhans is town to me mostly because nobody's asked. No, that's not an acceptable excuse. Hell, I bet you somebody DID ask and I just missed it.

It was the basis behind the scumlink accusation.  Alex refers to the meta but didn't explain it more.  You didn't explain it at all.  Thus the town got stuck with a nice information vacuum. 

To be truth, I think it started with your "Follow Alex.  Why are you questioning him" post.  A request to NOT question and follow blindly.  At least if you show red to a bull you get a CHANCE he didn't see you.

@Everybody: I'm thinking we might need a day extension. Stop groaning, I'm serious. We're going to have a day and a half to cram in pretty much an entire day's worth of content. All the tunnel vision has robbed us of information on over half the town.

It may not be wasted.  Nice thing about a bandwagon is that, if you can break it, you get to see a batch of people who don't think they are being noticed.  Sort of like yelling at a person for an hour, then suddenly turning around and going "HA!" at the person sneaking up behind you.


@everyone

So, after we recover a bit, I say we all pull back, reset ourselves, slog through the OMGPAIN of a day we have and go hunting.  Clean out your suspicions list for the moment, and go take in a few people's posts during this day.  You may find a new way of looking at people.


Then we come back here ,with new info and new reasons to go kill kill stabby stabby on someone. 

And yes, I'll accept a day extension.  We in bay12 really do try to rush things too fast.

[dakarian]

wow... I butchered that one.

Most of that was to Person.  The most important piece though I'll rewrite:

@everyone

So, after we recover a bit, I say we all pull back, reset ourselves, slog through the OMGPAIN of a day we have and go hunting.  Clean out your suspicions list for the moment, and go take in a few people's posts during this day.  You may find a new way of looking at people.


Then we come back here ,with new info and new reasons to go kill kill stabby stabby on someone.

And yes, I'll accept a day extension.  We in bay12 really do try to rush things too fast.

[Leafsnail]

I give ya 8 days and you want more?  I suppose I could do a 24 hour day extension if it's agreed upon.

[dakarian]

*dressed in rags*

Please, sir, I want some more.


 

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, I think I'll allow it, as long as there's a consensus for it.  I suppose it's my fault for including a day extension role .

[Zai]

Okay. I'm home sick, and I'll be using this time to do some honest-to-God analysis. Probably the first time I'm actually following through on my claims of doing some in-depth analysis, along with a summary.

...My God. I've worked an hour on this monster and I'm still only on the 3rd page (2nd full page of playing at 50 or so posts per page). I think I'll be requesting a day extension, too. o,0