I love how you guys are leaving me out of the bet, like I'm some kind of spectator. I don't want to get day killed simply because not only will that be a waste of a day kill, but more importantly, IT WON'T TELL YOU ANYTHING EXCEPT MY ALIGNMENT! Ok, great, now what? I can see it now, you guys would simply ignore my scum list (Pandarsenic, Archangel, and any of Diakron, Broski, Cheeetar,ToonyMan, and Zaithemaster, in order of most likely to least likely, this is up to date). Hell, all the damn scum on the bandwagon are probably just looking to either A) Break up a powerful town base or B)Make Alexhans look innocent/ToonyMan look bad or C)Make a whole hose of bandwagoners look bad (Depends on how much of the wagon is scum and how much of it is town.
Panda is already on my own possible scumlist. Archangel... go speak to Alex as to why he's not dead yet because if I had the hammer, he'd gone once that majority kicked in.
Diakron, Zathemaster. I need to look deeper on those two. I wouldn't mark them town by any stretch.
Broksi: He needs more pressure. At the moment, he smells of 'useless townie', but no reason to let him fly under the radar for that.
Cheeetar: possible scum
Toonyman: Only one I'd argue against, due to his hunting and his willingness to take up that bet. Of course, it would be helpful if you spent less time defending yourself and Alex and more time scrounging up info on him...
Stop playing the town for dumb stupid sheep that NEED your guidance to survive. If you are a townie, then be ready to DIE like a townie. If you have vital proof that one of those is mafia and you die without putting it out then it's your fault for spending more time defending than attacking. If you still need more time to accuse and question then you should be throwing out those questions even though we've been pushing for you (yes, some will say 'deflection scumtell" but you don't seem to care about the other scumtells you throw out so why care about that one?).
Without doing a deep anal, your death will:
Help, though not completely, clear Alexhans
Finish off Archangel, who's only alive because of the big "I am scum" sign you two both hold.
Allow us to move on to Meth, Panda, and zeith
I STILL haven't gotten an answer I'm satisfied with that explain why people think I'm scummy. I've brought up points, I've argued, I've scumhunted, I've even pushed people (Sadly, on Pandarsenic made himself scummier, and I don't think I've explained that one, I'll do it tomorrow)
Early game you kept disrupting early scumtelling instead of attacking fresh people.
You then tried to get the town to act mindlessly. The town should ALWAYS be questioning so the mafia can't use the mindlessless as a loophole.
You get hostile, bitter, angry, and insulting once pressure is put on you.
You skip over people's questions
You horribly skew people's arguments, thus misrepresenting them.
To those that see Alex as scummy but not you, defending alex without stating a reason links the two of you together (note: you didn't say ANYTHING about why you see him innocent until RIGHT NOW, 30 pages into the game. When I asked Alex the same thing he dodged my question then threw a quick snide comment about it later).
Which leads us to your next paragraph.
Hey, you guys wanna know why I think Alexhans is town?
YesIt's simple, actually. It's also meta. When Alexhans pulls crazy stunts or schemes, he's pretty much always town. He correctly guesses as scum that pulling the stunts puts a TON of suspicion on himself. And would you look at that, he's gotten a ton of suspicion on himself! Holy shit, it's like we're psychic! No, wait, it's called deductive reasoning.
Alex poked about us living in a dream.
Part of my dream is you writing that FUCKING paragraph DAYS ago!
(another part is if you laid off the inane sarcasm. Please just, JUST STOP that, NOW!)
So it's meta that your basing it off of. Meta FEW OF US HAVE. Meta you never bothered to share until NOW. And you WONDER why we're confused over your defense of him?
Find, so there's WIFOM in it as well, but the whole #$)%# town is drunk off of it so why not another one.
In any sense, it FINALLY, FINALLY explains your link with Alex.
No, seriously.. you don't know what that last paragraph, said plainly (once I ignore the %)(#%$ sarcasm, which is getting hard at this point) does to me.
But let's move on.
I want somebody to say, with a straight face and without lying, that thinking another player is town is scummy, because I'll tell you for a FACT, thinking another player is town is both common and a null tell. Well, until we start getting roleflips, but since we don't, nobody has that kind of knowledge.
It's also pretty ugly. Constantly screaming that someone is town helps the mafia who would want to leave the town with nothing but suspects. It also means that a mafia could use that to sow confusion like, say, making you HATE a person because they attack your buddy, or making the town drag you into the mud due to the buddying.
Then there's the fun "I swore he was town, but he turned out to be mafia" mess.
Oddball WIFOM: since Alex knows his meta game so well and knows that you know, what if Alex is playing you for a fool by acting loony just because he KNOWS you will defend him?
No, that's not serious, but it's one of the fun things that show up when analyzing things.
Oh, and I'll say this. Mafia HAVE been known to hang on to the most trusted townies. Note that "you're stuck on web, that's scummy" DID show up a few times.
Now, if you think, say, that Alexhans is scummy, thinking I'm scum by relation is stupid, until the roleflip comes in. Yes, I've said it: Unless you can confirm the side of one player, you CANNOT get tells from other players based solely on their opinion of each other.
I wouldn't have minded THIS showing up as well MUCH MUCH earlier in the story. I also believe that Day 1 team finding is poor townie play. Note that, even when I felt you both are scum, I only hunted one of you at a time: you early on and Alex later on. When I REALLY pressed, I had one as scum and the other as either a town or a neutral. Still, it would've helped some of the others who are trying to create the entire scumteam.
Btw, reading player opinion isn't for scumtells, but for determinine motive, which I believe is more important than simple scumtells. Scumtells can net you the wrong person (like, say, someone who does crazy scummy looking things as town). Motive can find the truth behind the games.
It also helps with consistency and for explaining odd behavior. For example, you gave your opinion on Alex, along with WHY you hold that opinion. Because of it, it helps explain a lot of your behavior.
I'm willing to risk that Alexhans is scum because, at the moment, I feel very confident he's town. If he roleflips scum and then the rest of you guys bandwagon on me, I will at least post my suspicion list and put as much pressure as possible onto anybody I think is scum. I'd probably do my damndest to argue that he tricked me, but I already know it would never work (This, btw, is the reason why I would NEVER do this if we were both scum. As soon as one of us dies, the other one is the next lynched, guaranteed.). My expectation is for him to flip town, however. In fact, in a best case scenario, he never flips until the game is over. I just don't want people I think are townies to be lynched. What, exactly, is wrong with that?
Because you won't even question the idea.. you won't even hint and entertain the possibility, the mere THOUGHT that perhaps Alex is NOT town.
You're worried that Alex will flip scum and you'll die? Meh. That's a poor worry for a townie. You should be worried that Alex would flip scum and never die because then you'd lose the game.
I would feel a lot better if you at least let yourself CONSIDER that idea since, as you said, NO ONE KNOWS ANYONE'S ALIGNMENT BEFORE ROLEFLIP! Stop thinking in 100%s. Day 1 is a horrible time for 100%s.
Btw, a important point: when you are able to see your own meta to the point of explaining every detail, it proves that you know and are capable of controlling your meta.
For example, I may be known for WOTing when town and being less WOTy when scum. Well, once I KNOW that, I can simply WOT the next time I scum so everyone goes "Oh, he's town".
Meta breaks apart into pieces once the player is skilled enough to control it and knowledgeable enough to realize what they show. That's why discussing Meta turns you into WIFOM real fast.
I mean, if we all are to agree that "No scum is meant to play like that" then wouldn't it be smart and stylish for the scum to DO EXACTLY THAT then hide behind that sentence.
That's why you NEVER let yourself stop questioning. It leaves loopholes for the mafia to slip into, and poisoned wine for the town to drink.
Hell, I haven't really seen anything that convinces me Alexhans is scum either.
@Dakarian: You're timid and afriad of death. Damnit, if you think ToonyMan is town, you should be defending him from anything you think is wrong. Anything less is, well, scummy. As you said, only scum is afraid of what their image is or death.
If I'm town, then I don't KNOW toony's alignment. As such, I may be defending a scum or a town.
If I defend him and he's town, we're fine.
If I defend him, he's scum and dies, I'll die, but we killed a scum. I said this over and over: 1 scum for 1 town is worthwhile.
If I defend him, succeed in saving him, and he's scum.. we lose.
That last, is what I fear. Dying? Meh. I enjoy the fact that I have YET to ever be lynched in a game, even from back when I played these things live (even when I was scum, and yes, I won that one). It's neat, even when half the games have had me on the ropes. But I'm not stupid. I'll be lynched, I'll die, and chances are, it'll be as town. Nothing wrong with that.
But I've already lost.. many times. I've lost games to scum I swore was town. I lost games by derailing a push to kill a scum and, instead, ended up killing a town. I've defended people I swore was town and ended up as scum.
Dying. Meh. That'll be easy for me. Those that have played with me should know my meta. Alex betted with Toony over what you'll flip when you die. I made a bet with someone to kill me off and let themselves die if I turned town, and meant it. The mess I threw at Arc and Alex isn't BS. I HONESTLY believe that if you are in a bandwagon you can't get out of as town then accept your death and take a scum with you.
Perhaps I'll phrase it like you do: Not defending a person is trying to save your own skin? BULLSHIT moronic logic is bullshit and moronic.
The link between you two exists for one and ONLY one reason: YOU KEEP REINFORCING IT! I've tried hard.. HARD to think of you two seperately. I considered you town and Person scum. I thought of Person as neutral while you were scum. I had you as town and him as neutral at one point (when Archangel was in my sights)
Yet every time.. EVERY SINGLE TIME I even poke at one of you.. even the smallest poke, I get BOTH of you attacking me, insulting me, threatening me, accusing me.
You've admitted it, since the link exists only because we reinforce it, it can't exist because we're on the scum team 
1. You really need to watch yourself. The mistakes aren't helping your defense. I said that, not Cheeetar.
2. You need to check who you are arguing with. I said it to explain why people keep linking you. I'm doing my best NOT to link you two. It was a message to you that meant "STOP BEING SHOCKED THAT PEOPLE LINK THE TWO OF YOU"
Btw, the "Both of you are scum" scenerio involves the both of you hiding behind your meta. Again, it's like me WOTing like crazy and screaming "I CAN'T be scum.. see? WOT WOTWOT!"
Consider it a compliment that I'm considering the idea that you two are so well controlled and crafty that you can analyze your game, find every pro-town/scum action, then play the part well while being scum. That's not bad mafia play. That's evil crafty mafia game with lots of tasty WIFOM for the town to drink.
It's also why using meta to save yourself doesn't work, at all! In fact, it makes it worse: it turns all of your past town tells into WIFOMs since it's now easy to see you in scum chat saying "I know how to act pro town. Watch me!"
On a more serious note, well no shit Sherlock, what were you expecting, us to roll over and bow to your will? I think Alexhans is town, so I defend him. He thinks I'm town, he defends me. ANYTHING ELSE WOULD BE SCUMMY, PERIOD.
I expected the both of you to explain your reasonings CALMLY, answer questions FULLY, treat the town as something more than just sheep for the slaughter.
I expected you to push on either Alex for not hammering the person you believe is scum or to push Archangel so that you know, in your heart, that he is scum. I expect Alex to question him or hammer him, not just accept him as town just because he wrote a few more words.
For that matter, I expected Alex to be actually HUNTING scum based on how they post and what they do, and use that hammer to give us a free kill. Given that, if Alex is town, he's dead Night 1 since we can't protect Web and Alex, he'd use that hammer today. If he didn't want to use it on Arc, he would have a better reason than "oh, he's finally posted".
sidenote: if arc JUST wanted to use his hammer to pressure, not to kill, he should've said so. The town's been hanging on the idea of a nice hammer kill on a suspect, not using it as some kind of hyperbig FOS (like having 8 votes on you isn't enough?)
I expect my arguments to be countered based on what I'm actually arguing about. You have misrepresented me and others a few times now and used very awkward logic in other times (seriously, not defending someone that MAY be town = scummy self protectionism?!). The 'cheeetar' mistake is proving that you aren't being careful in your posts. That's not a scumtell in itself to me (to others it is though) but it heavily hurts your arguments and credibility.
So does the sarcasm and swearing.
Whil I was typing this, I just realized something. Imagine, for a second, Alexhans is scum and I'm town. Would he not of, you know, acted on his bet with ToonyMan? Not only would it kill off a townie (At the town's request, no less), but it also would have made him seem less scummy and put a major egg on ToonyMan's face as well as half the rest of the town. This just makes me all the more certain of Alexhans not being scum. Of course, it could be, say, a ToonyMan Alexhans scumteam, but if that's the case, I precongratulate you two on managing to be hard to detect... but also really stupid.
YET ANOTHER paragraph I would've liked BACK WHEN I FIRST TALKED ABOUT IT!
It makes sense. Alex scum+ you town would mean Alex would've taken the bet and ruined Toony since Alex would KNOW you were town.
Which messes me up because I'm working on Alex scum/you neutral.
I'm going to need another post to write on. I need to reset my thinking a bit.
Fakeedit: Just saw the MASS of posts Alex wrote. I still don't like his tone so I'll need a second to think before dealing with him.
Author
Topic: Bay 12 Mafia - Game Over - The Computer's Revenge (Read 70945 times)