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[Mr.Person]

I start everybody off as neutral, just so you know, and Alexhans is no longer in the "trusted town" category, he's down to "probably town". That means I trust chaoticjosh more than Alexhans, just so you all know. He probably won't go any lower til lylo, however.

Mind if I poke at two things?

1. What made you switch Alexhans from trusted to probably?  It sounds like you spotted something you don't like.  Furthermore, why did that 'something' not drop him down to neutral? 

2. Most of us are neutral but you have only a few people you don't trust?  So you trust neutrals?

1. Lack of WoT's, mostly, but he's also no longer quite as aggressive. I also have this sneaky suspicion he's trying to buddy up with me, which I don't really want. However, since I know for a fact that this

2. Neutral is the default level. Most of you guys are actually lower. If I trust someone, you can be sure I think they're town, at least probably.

that this is my paranoia speaking. Wow, I can't finish anything these day, can I?

[Diakron]

UNVOTE

damn to many WoT... all i want to know is why Alexhans agreed to a plan the reneged on it?

[Alexhans]

You people asked for this post.  Now read it.

Alexhans, you started up a bet with Toonyman, saying that if he's willing to bet his life on Person turning up scum.  He took that bet.  You and Person start backing off and throwing accusation after accusation.  Now you're pushing on the bandwagon for Archangel.

I smell fowl.  Ugly, UGLY fowl.

Take a bath then.  Webadict is our CONFIRMED TOWNIE.  He wanted Archangel dead.  I wanted any of the 4 lurkers dead.  It's good enough to me.

If you don't understand my strategy with Toonyman then you still have much to learn.  Decision making is what makes town different from mafia many times.  Town has different objectives than scum. Scum needs not to die.  If Mr.Person was town and Toony scum he would never agree my bargain because he would know Mr.Person's flip.  The only alternative is that they are both scum wich... given Toony's posts and flaming I think it's almost an absolute improbability. Toony-scum could've also gambled on people denying the validity of the bargain but knowing how lame and straightforward people act here it would be suicide. 

So yeah.  Toonyman is town.  If people think that each time I call someone is town I'm buddying then they should go and read some mafia games.

Alex, you're a WOTer.  I want, right now, a deep, strong analysis of exactly WHAT makes Mr. Person so town that you're willing to risk everything, including your credibility on it.

Credibility won't do me any good if people are stubborn and short-sighted.  I rather fight my fight to win a game than be mild all the way through defeat. 

You people don't realize that each way in wich Mr.Person reacted was a genuine rage.  Scum can try and fake rages, sure, but it's pretty hard to pull one of those convincingly.  He has been active and tried to question people. 

But the players in this game have taken it as an agressive interruption and questioning upon themselves.  That scares them and they go for the lame approach of thinking that whoever attacks them is scum.

I won't let this town take a player who I think can be very helpful (and let every anti-town player easyly swim through) be lynched for a flawed concept.

  I want a clear explanation of why he acted the way he did that caused you believe he's town and what you feel have been misread by the town.  Do NOT give me theorycraft: that's pure WIFOM and you should know it.  Just give me the facts based on the posts.

blah blah blah... Everything I say, you may call WIFOM.  If you don't want to listen to the truth when it dances naked in front of your eyes.  That's your
call.

Excluding Webadict, there's not one person, ONE PERSON that I can declare THAT much town.  You two don't question each other, don't poke at each other, and defend each other to the death.  You claim that his meta game proved it to you.  Explain then.. details.

Bullshit.  You and Josh claimed it was all "meta".  I only say that the IRC experience I have with him helps me realize he is not acting scummy.  How is it that neither of you bashed meph when he said I was acting more town than scum?  Avoid the double standards, please.

Btw, what in the world is archangel supposed to claim that would clear him?

Who said it should clear him?  Why do you put a FAKE motive into my actions all the fucking time?  Don't outhink me.  You're clearly bad at it.

This isn't Paranormal where you can claim "human guardian" or "Alien survivor".  All of these roles can be set to be scum or town.  As such, how would a role claim do ANYTHING to dispel a person at this point? 

It would SPARK DISCUSSION.  It would make him post.  It would let me meditate about what he says.  It would make others talk and react and oppose and agree... It would be EVERYTHING mafia has to be as opposed to NOTHING. 

You can't expect every game to be as breakable as many games here... Some things are done to get reads.

It's funny. With just Person alone, I can see him neutral.  Alex, though, is looking worse and worse to me, and his resistance towards that hammer when he was so willing to go trigger happy early on taints Person. 

blah... blah...
I explained why I was trigger happy.
I explained why I won't kill Mr.Person. 
You seem to be implying that my defense on Mr.Person makes him scummier wich is one of the most dangerous attitudes one can take.  If you think someone is scum.  Lynch him.  Don't link by proxymity just because someone is defending him.  It doesn't make sense.

So for now I'll maintain the aim for Arc for the hammering.  However, Alex, I'll want that analysis from you, because I'm starting to get an idea of who gets the actual lynch for day 1.

I feel so threatened...    It's funny how you say that you're ok with the Arch hammer but still plan on blaming me for it if it happens to be a mislynch.

After reading all the posts since my last one (more than one page on 50 per (I think)), I must say: All of this fighting is terrible. I suspect there's only 1 person involved in all that arguing that is actually scum, 2 tops. But this fighting does not bode well. TM, M.P, and Alex are the main contenders in it (with some Pandar, Cheeetar, dakarian, and Web thrown in), but I'm not confident enough in saying that one of them is scum to vote for them.

You're leaving the sidelines practically out (That's pandar and cheeetar) and those are usually the most likely to be scum because they wont commit themselves to anything but push safely from the back.

The lurkers need to just be mod-killed or something.

If the mod doesn't do this it's the town's job to remove them before it's too late.  It's THE SAME effect.  IS it so hard to understand?
----------------------------

I'm fairly sure Toonyman is just stupid.  Not scum.  Otherwise he wouldn't have taken my proposal...

'Well, I want people to ignore everything he says, but I don't want him lynched because then he would turn up town and I might be suspected'
Also strangely this is about exactly the same thing Pandarsenic said about me (although that was probably warranted at the time).
What Toonyman is doing right now is pretty much what won Paranormal Mafia Round 9.

Fair enough.  But you ignore the fact that Toonyman has acted so scummy with his hopping on waggons opportunistically that I wouldn't necessarily suffer if he, indeed, flipped town.

I could've said that Toony was wrong and that I had a town read on him but he is being such a pain in the ass that calling him stupid releases some steam in my system... He has played horribly anti-town in almost every game I've played with him so...

And, believe me, watching toonyman lynched would probably give me big pleasure but I usually tend to put the town's goals before my own personal leisure.

Even the lurkers, at this point, have shown more than they think they have.  "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice".  When you go analyze them, think less "Who is being the least helpful" and more "Who is trying to maneuver through this like a mafia would?"  Townies tend to be more 'anti-town' than Mafia.. at least at first glance.

I'm going to make one of your cheesy questions:
What did you gain from each lurker with what they've done so far.  Clear and complete please.  (see how annoying it is?)
---------------------

@Alexhans: To be honest, if you hadn't of yelled at everyone, I'd be lynched for sure, instead of just probably lynched.

Yes!  And this is what made it so important.  I came forward and pushed for what I believed.  Now things are unclear.  People have to make choices.  Easy bandwaggoning or vote hoping is looked upon. 

If I had laid back as useless townie to avoid getting in the middle of things (wich is something town shouldn't be overly concerned with) you would've been quicklynched with no info but some waggons that would've probably been a null tell in general and people would've jumped on the next active person.

Right now.  Wether any of my town reads or even me gets lynched or killed.  This will be recorded.  The moment and the reasons for each action.
-------------------------

IMPORTANT MESSAGE:  Whoever uses WIFOM as argument again should seriously consider on giving a "real" reason.  Otherwise you'll win killpoints in my vigbook.
-------------------
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42096.msg783084#msg783084
makes a really good point about cheeetar.  Cheeetar is focusing on one player but being careful of having enough excuses in case of a mislynch and is worrying in excess about semantics (That is a scumtell in my book.  Scum uses semantics so it appears they have reasons for the mislynches they pull).

Don't forget about cheeetar.
---------------------

and I don't think Alex is being focused on enough.

Focused enough on what?

Finally.  Content.  It wasn't so hard Archangel... was it?
---------------------

Now Alex, I've become much more suspicious of you. From the last couple pages, you've: offered a bogus deal with no reasonable merit, slung insults, been very condescending to Toon and others as though you're the only person worth listening to, and as Dakarion said, you and MP have been backing eachother up this entire time, which seems very odd to me.

blah blah blah... Does any of that makes me scummy? 
1) bogus deal (WICH HAD A MERIT I EXPLAINED.  I GOT A READ)
2) Slung insults (yeah, those surely must be from scum.  NOt just some pissed off player)
3) Condescending (this may approach the nearest thing that you could call scummy.  Yet, you're so much worse with your high attitude so give me a break)
4) Im clearly not getting listened to so...
5) Me and Mr.P "allegedly" backing each other up MUST MEAN WE ARE SCUM.  Of course!!! dude... You should be a PI.

WHY?  Try to explain why you think something is scummy.  Don't say just because he did A... explain why A is scummy.

You've ignored me completely. Now, I feel a bit disrespected here. You see, I've asked you questions, I've brought up reasonable points, and I've talked to you directly, so I don't think there's an excuse for this. If you'd like me to, I can bring up the multiple posts you've ignored.

I honestly don't know where I ignored you.  I probably felt it was unimpòrtant or obvious or something.   

I feel disrespected when you guys pretend that I would defend a scummate in the open when he is about to be lynched and the worst part is that many of your suspicions on me come from the assumption that Mr.Person is scum.  Double fail.

I'd very much like you to bring the questions I've ignored.  I can't look for them right now.  I've wasted enough time as it is.

Now, I don't mean to be rude, but I have a feeling that you're stalling for time.

See...!!! This is the kind of things that make me blow...

stalling for time??? Dude... We don't even know where most people stand on several issues?  Why would you want me to rush?  I rushed once already (against my usual playstyle) and it turned out really bad.  We have time so we should use it to keep hunting. 

Didn't you say earlier that you had enough votes to hammer Archangel? Why haven't you? Wasn't he the person that you wanted to hammer most?

QUote me where I said that.  I DIDNT say that.  Please, check what you say.
I say I'd kill any of the lurkers:  brothernature, Redwarrior, boksi, archangel.  Besides, archangel is ACTUALLY posting!!! Why would you want to rush his kill?
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42096.msg783213#msg783213
I'm proud of you Archangel. 

Whom do you consider most likely to be scum and what's your ideal scumteam, Archangel?

oh god.. not again... how is this question useful? 

Pandarsenic is active lurking.

indeed he is.

I think Alexhans is scum at the moment, as he hammered someone while giving them little chance to defend themself, and has been very abrasive to anyone who questions him. I also think you are scum, because of the possibility of you being scum buddies with Alexhans (yes I am aware that it would be stupid for scum to do this. However, that does not mean it is not true) and your previous WIFOM about your death.

Same thing as before.  It's almost as if you had copy pasted.  You're going for the lowest probability just because it is possible.
-----------------------

So Toon, I take it your entire accusation of Boksi is that he's lurking?

Accusation?  Who said anything about accusation?  What toony did there is a pressure vote.  They help. 
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42096.msg783788#msg783788
Toonyman.  After this game you'll have your signature say:  "I made an ass of myself in Bay 12 mafia".

Mr.P... at this point.  I couldn't care less if you suspect me of buddying or not.

People are starting to try to fit facts into their beliefs... that only leads to screw up.  Just how I paired Webadict and Dakarian and hence killed Webadict.  It was suboptimal thinking.
-------

So Alex, did something provoke this little outburst? It doesn't seem to correspond with any recent posts.

No... YOU dont think that it corresponds with any recent posts.  YOU are not ME.  You dont think they way I do.  Maybe this painfully long post will help you understand me a bit better.

unvote, vote brothernature

I think we missed your opinions on just about anything.  I'd like to hear them.

LAME FAKE EDIT:

UNVOTE

damn to many WoT... all i want to know is why Alexhans agreed to a plan the reneged on it?

I don't know what the heck you're talking about.  Rephrase please.  Why are you voting me exactly?  Who did you unvote?  Why?

[Alexhans]

by the way.  I'm leaving to a birthday now so I guess I'll see your amazingly smart responses later.

[dakarian]

Ok, I had a nice WOT but you know, I think we're about done here.

Alex won't daykill Person.  He won't daykill Arc.  I think we're about done with him.

Unvote.  Vote Alexhans

Do I need a deep analysis post or is my case made? 

[Mr.Person]

Scum tier: Archangel (His comment about Alexhans not being focused on enough is total bullshit, he's stealing the spotlight right now. Plus all dat lurking and bandwagoning early on. Keep talking, though, you're starting to pursuade me), Pandarsenic (Active lurking), Zaithemaster (same, no suspicion at all all game), Dakarian (Trying to get hurry Alexhans with his daykill and is trying to make waiting for more people to talk sound scummy.)

Town tier: Chaoticjosh (Holy shit, it's content-man! Plus, the whole clearing Webadict thing), Webadict (Duh), Alexhans (WoT's everywhere, well thought out posts)

I dunno tier: ToonyMan, Cheeetar, Diakron

Lurker tier: Everybody else. Get in here or you'll find yourselves in scum tier soon!

@Dakarian: You WERE in I dunno tier, but your last MORONIC comment got you moved down to scum tier.

[Diakron]

mr. P: the only way i would even think about that being a good analysis is if you flipped town... i still think you are scum but alexhans said way back ( i will search for it and post it) that he agreed to a hammer on you and now you two seem to be buddying it up and writing post that support each other and discredit everyone else...

[Cheeetar]

Alexhans, I'm not going to quote that huge ass amount of quotes, but I will say this: Voting with the confirmed townie all the time is a scum tactic. They can use it to vote for town without having to discuss, and when the confirmed townie votes for scum they can just pull out and try and convince the confirmed townie elsewise.

Seeing as I believe both you and Mr. Person are scum, I will vote Alexhans as you have the power to day-lynch.

[dakarian]

Alex was simply waiting for Angel to post?  His daykill is only for lurkers?

Doesn't that make it easy for the mafia to avoid death by just throwing a few posts?

Isn't that a little blindsided, killing someone who just isn't posting all that much?  How many mafias have we played where the mafia has been pretty darn active?  How many of us already know how quickly lurkers get spotlighted?

Isn't going after 'easy lynches' like ONLY lurkers a scumtell these days?  No, that's not to you Person though you can answer.  That's to the rest of you guys. 

What I will say to you, Person, is this.  Vote for me if you believe me so bad.   I'd love to read this thread the day after you succeed in leading the town for my lynch.  Go ahead and bet your life for your belief that 'moronic vote for Alex= scum'.  I already said to Arc that dying while bringing a scum with them is just about as good as a town could ask for. 

But that's moot for you.  If you honestly, HONESTLY believe I'm scum then vote for me then show, in full glory, my scumminess to the rest of the town. 

Btw, insults does NOT help your argument.

[Diakron]

Very good alexhans, you lead us to believing you would hammer with us this whole time without saying if you would or wouldn't... almost as if you don't want Mr. P to be hammered... you two are playing as a team and there is only one team in mafia...

[ToonyMan]

Damn finally.  I'll do Boksi tommorow.

Unvote.  Vote Alexhans.

Took you guys long enough.

[Mr.Person]

Alex was simply waiting for Angel to post?  His daykill is only for lurkers?

Doesn't that make it easy for the mafia to avoid death by just throwing a few posts?

Isn't that a little blindsided, killing someone who just isn't posting all that much?  How many mafias have we played where the mafia has been pretty darn active?  How many of us already know how quickly lurkers get spotlighted?

Isn't going after 'easy lynches' like ONLY lurkers a scumtell these days?  No, that's not to you Person though you can answer.  That's to the rest of you guys. 

What I will say to you, Person, is this.  Vote for me if you believe me so bad.   I'd love to read this thread the day after you succeed in leading the town for my lynch.  Go ahead and bet your life for your belief that 'moronic vote for Alex= scum'.  I already said to Arc that dying while bringing a scum with them is just about as good as a town could ask for. 

But that's moot for you.  If you honestly, HONESTLY believe I'm scum then vote for me then show, in full glory, my scumminess to the rest of the town. 

Btw, insults does NOT help your argument.

Haha, now you're contradicting yourself. You claim that scum is oftentimes lurkers, yet then you claim that me and Alexhans are the scum, and we're probably the most active players.

mr. P: the only way i would even think about that being a good analysis is if you flipped town... i still think you are scum but alexhans said way back ( i will search for it and post it) that he agreed to a hammer on you and now you two seem to be buddying it up and writing post that support each other and discredit everyone else...

Yet the analysis is bad now just because I could be scum? Are you going to ignore everything I say just because I could be scum?

Very good alexhans, you lead us to believing you would hammer with us this whole time without saying if you would or wouldn't... almost as if you don't want Mr. P to be hammered... you two are playing as a team and there is only one team in mafia...

You need to learn the to count, there's the scum team and the town team.

[webadict]

If everyone doesn't UNVOTE ALEXHANS RIGHT NOW I WILL CUT YOUR THROATS OPEN AND SPLATTER YOUR GUTS ALL OVER YOUR HOUSE AND VARIOUS PORTIONS OF YOUR YARD, YOU STUPID MORONS!

OH MY GOD! Everything Mr.Person says is likely true. I have no idea what you morons are doing...

Mr.Person, what happened while I was gone?

[Pandarsenic]

Mr.Person and Alexhans have a fucking hilarious definition of lurking and activelurking. I've been posting and assaulting Mr.Person all this time.

But hell, if the confirmed townie wants to keep the scum hammerman alive, by all means....

[Mr.Person]

Mr.Person and Alexhans have a fucking hilarious definition of lurking and activelurking. I've been posting and assaulting Mr.Person all this time.

But hell, if the confirmed townie wants to keep the scum hammerman alive, by all means....

Alright, just because of this, I went back and looked through your posts. And you know what? You pretty much define active lurking and being scummy. The ONLY thing you've done ALL GAME is said and resaid, over and over, that because I think Alexhans is town and he think I'm town, we must both be scum. Nevermind the fact that you and Cheeetar are buddying up, no no no. Nevermind that we've both been pretty non-lurky, forget that shit. You know everybody else in the game? Ignore them, gotta kill that MrPerson+Alexhans team! Wanna know what's fishy? The way you were goading Alexhans into day killing me. Where's that enthusiasm now? Why weren't you yelling for Archangel to be day killed?