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Author Topic: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife  (Read 32200 times)

Jackrabbit

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #345 on: August 29, 2009, 08:39:52 am »

Nobody could have predicted the flaming puppy.

I understand now Armok, thanks for clearing that up.
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Vester

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #346 on: August 29, 2009, 12:01:14 pm »

I don't think God abandoned us, I just don't think [God is] able/willing to do things we expect him to do.

If 'God' cannot do the things we expect him to do, then he is not omnipotent.
If he is not omnipotent, then he is not god.

Ah PWN J00 FALLACY iN YuR LoGiC

It's called "relative autonomy", I think. Catholics at least believe that god won't do what we ask god to do because, well, we should be able to do that ourselves.


(this does not apply to asking for things that, for example, break physics. No one could do that, not even a perfect, omnipotent god. If god had to do something that broke a rule that god supposedly set up, then that rule was imperfect, implying god's imperfection and then EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER.)

I'm going to step on quite a few toes here.

I have a hard time accepting the christian ideas of god.

He's an invisible being that knows all and can do all. Because of his incredible perspective, he's going to always make the right choice, even if it doesn't seem like it to us (Book of Job, "God works in mysterious ways").

Actually, the moral of the story of Job has nothing to do with that. The actual moral is this - shit happens, and not because God is rewarding or punishing you. It just happens. That particular book in the Bible was written to disabuse people of the silly notion that if you're good, good things happen, and that if you're bad, bad things happen - this is called the "doctrine of temporal retribution". It's an ancient belief and one that holds no water, which is the point of the book of Job.
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"Land of song," said the warrior bard, "though all the world betray thee - one sword at least thy rights shall guard; one faithful harp shall praise thee."

sonerohi

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #347 on: August 29, 2009, 03:39:29 pm »

I was raised Christian, but I've slowly changed my beliefs to a kind of all-encompassing agnosticism. I'd prefer to be on the winning side of Pascal's Gambit, so I really do hope that there is an afterlife. If not.. well.... it gives me the chills to think that everything I do will be dust eventually.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #348 on: August 29, 2009, 05:08:18 pm »

Agnosticism is starting to look attractive, at least to avoid arguments, but I really do believe in God, as stupid as that sounds.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #349 on: August 29, 2009, 05:15:56 pm »

You shouldn't be ashamed of it, and you shouldn't change because people disagree with you.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #350 on: August 29, 2009, 05:18:58 pm »

Yes, I feel that as long as I don't have a holier-than-thou attitude, I'll be fine. Hell, half my friends are Atheists.
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Killas[SiN]

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #351 on: August 29, 2009, 05:30:10 pm »

We're still here, right? We've survived thus far without divine intervention.

How do we know that 'God' does not intervene? I'm pretty sure that if 'God' does exist and is the god of our world, he would probably have a finger in every pie.

Of course, I suppose we put many things down to miracles, freak occurences, mass hysteria but hey, there are many things that cannot be explained through purely science... And still can't be explained in religious terms either.

My dad just told me that in the bible one of the things that God tell the Jews to do is to stay away from people with rashes if they wanted to stay healthy... Several thousand years before it was actually discovered that contagions could be spread through touch and physical transmission.

Agnosticism is starting to look attractive, at least to avoid arguments, but I really do believe in God, as stupid as that sounds.

How is that stupid? Im a Christian. Hell, my dad is a freakin' pastor. He has this awesome collar too. If I win the lotto, I'm gonna buy him a golden diamond encrusted collar, so he can pimp and praise god with style at the same time.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #352 on: August 29, 2009, 05:32:28 pm »

We're still here, right? We've survived thus far without divine intervention.

How do we know that 'God' does not intervene? I'm pretty sure that if 'God' does exist and is the god of our world, he would probably have a finger in every pie.

Both possibilities. Just because he's not overt about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
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Solifuge

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #353 on: August 29, 2009, 06:20:55 pm »

(The Dead Have Risen!)
The Earth is positioned so perfectly for life. I just think that everything would be really ironic if it was just a random occurrence.

If events hadn't happened in such a way as to allow for the generation of life, its propagation, and its gradual rise to sentience, then we would never have been here to ask questions about how utterly unlikely the occurrence of our existence is. Whether this be from a world-creating entity, or the random happenings emergent from physical laws, I can't say, nor do I feel it is important... all I can say is that we exist, thus any arguments over the unlikelyhood of how and why are irrelevant!


Solifuge Waxes Philosophical:
In my mind, I feel that Death may quite likely be a great Nothing, where I would be without the ability to perceive, remember, or know anything, as the physical brain in which these things are housed would be gone.

Even so, I know that it is very important to be a "Good" person in life. On a simple level, pro-social behavior helps everyone attain a better quality of life, myself included. More importantly, if this life is the only chance I will have to experience the universe, to add to the collective body of human knowledge, and to create and change things that will remain and influence the future, then it's a damned good reason to live a good life! Artists, Scientists, and Philosophers who died long ago are still making the world a better place today, by leaving their knowledge and findings for the future to experience and share. It is this gift, our language and recorded knowledge, that allows us to live beyond ourselves and our lifetimes, as a greater entity: Civilization.

As Human knowledge expanded through history, we stopped fighting with our neighbors over local territory and formed cooperative social groups to help each other. Eventually, these social groups stopped stealing food from other social groups, and have continued to form successively larger groups, with wider-affecting rules of conduct, since then.

As much as we like to think of the present as the pinnacle of development, we're still fighting with our neighbors, though what once were Hunting Troops and Tribes have become Nations and Continents. It is my hope that we will be able to continue to learn the value of cooperation, and stop taking advantage of our Human neighbors the world over. Perhaps eventually, people will stop taking advantage of their Non-Human neighbors as well, and we can begin to act as an entire Planet... and at this point, our neighbors will be other Planets, or perhaps things I cannot even begin to fathom.

Basically, any small part my life can play to bring Humans, life on Earth, and indeed some small part of the Universe closer to this ultimate goal of cooperation and coexistence is a life well-lived... and perhaps that is what I feel an Afterlife truly is... the legacy each individual leaves behind that contributes to a more promising future for those outside ourselves.

Besides, if I can know that I've tried my best to do that, I'd need no other afterlife to reward me.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 06:25:39 pm by Solifuge »
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Vester

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #354 on: August 29, 2009, 09:23:56 pm »

We're still here, right? We've survived thus far without divine intervention.

How do we know that 'God' does not intervene? I'm pretty sure that if 'God' does exist and is the god of our world, he would probably have a finger in every pie.

Of course, I suppose we put many things down to miracles, freak occurences, mass hysteria but hey, there are many things that cannot be explained through purely science... And still can't be explained in religious terms either.

My dad just told me that in the bible one of the things that God tell the Jews to do is to stay away from people with rashes if they wanted to stay healthy... Several thousand years before it was actually discovered that contagions could be spread through touch and physical transmission.

If there is a God, that God does not intervene in any way that could or would break causality. For example - people define miracles as the impossible coming true. Problem being that by definition, if it's impossible it literally can't be done.

God operates within the framework of the rules God created. I already said this earlier: if God found it necessary to intervene, to break the rules, then that would imply that the rules God created were imperfect, implying in turn that God made a mistake, implying that God is not omniscient, nor omnipotent, and so on.

(Just for the record: God made a mistake when he created eggplants. Those things are death.)

(The Dead Have Risen!)
The Earth is positioned so perfectly for life. I just think that everything would be really ironic if it was just a random occurrence.

If events hadn't happened in such a way as to allow for the generation of life, its propagation, and its gradual rise to sentience, then we would never have been here to ask questions about how utterly unlikely the occurrence of our existence is. Whether this be from a world-creating entity, or the random happenings emergent from physical laws, I can't say, nor do I feel it is important... all I can say is that we exist, thus any arguments over the unlikelyhood of how and why are irrelevant!

Yes. That is exactly it.


Besides, if I can know that I've tried my best to do that, I'd need no other afterlife to reward me.


The afterlife isn't a reward, after all. It's just... what happens after life.
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"Land of song," said the warrior bard, "though all the world betray thee - one sword at least thy rights shall guard; one faithful harp shall praise thee."

Solifuge

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #355 on: August 29, 2009, 09:41:33 pm »

(Just for the record: God made a mistake when he created eggplants. Those things are death.)

Breaded, fried Eggplant in Pasta... Demeter's gift to Spaghetti Marinara.
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RAM

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #356 on: August 29, 2009, 10:44:51 pm »

Baba ghanoush can be quite nice...

What if god made the rules with the assumption that god would be around to intervene and therefore were better with a bit more predictability and a bit less tolerance...
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Vester

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #357 on: August 29, 2009, 10:59:19 pm »

Then free will goes all the way down the toilet.

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"Land of song," said the warrior bard, "though all the world betray thee - one sword at least thy rights shall guard; one faithful harp shall praise thee."

Zironic

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #358 on: August 29, 2009, 11:02:01 pm »

The universe is infinitely large to you. Earth's position is just as rare as every other planet's position.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Is Death the End? - Bay 12's Musings of the Afterlife
« Reply #359 on: August 30, 2009, 02:12:15 am »

I think God gave us free will.
Every atrocity committed on this planet, by humans, happened because of humans. God had no part, whether or not humans did it in his name. If he intervenes, then there is no free will. Sure, bad things happen, but he's God, I somehow think he's desensitized to suffering and I'd rather work things out on my own then have to be babysat by a divine being. If this world is destroyed, it'll be because of us. Or aliens. Or kangaroos (they're planning something, I swear), and you know what? As much as I'd hate that, I wouldn't blame God if he didn't intervene. I'd rather die as a stupid, free individual, than an enlightened, restricted one. Life is for the living and we are on this Earth because, quite frankly, we are on this Earth. Let's try and make it the best Earth we can. We don't need God for that, some of us just need the presence of him to try and understand it all.

tl;dr I just posted something that had nothing to do with the current line of conversation, simply presenting my views in such a way as to likely spark an argument, because I don't have enough willpower to keep my view to myself.
So, for everyone's benefit, if someone disagrees with me, I won't debate it. Everyone needs their own opinion.
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