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Author Topic: Beginners Mafia - Game over!  (Read 73634 times)

Vector

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #375 on: August 08, 2009, 02:29:35 pm »

And now, to webadict.

I may be going for easy lynches, but so are you.  In fact, I'm the easiest lynch of the game.  I have played half a game of mafia, in person, and that was it.  Why do you think my posts sound so damnably confused?  I am confused.  I can't figure out what's going on, and I have people trying to kill me and defend me right, left, and center.  What we have here is the strongest player of the game attacking the weakest player, without taking into consideration that the learning curve of forum mafia is particularly steep.

Why are you not going for more difficult people?  ToonyMan, dakarian, and Free Beer are going to be far more challenging than myself, and you haven't even really nudged them.  You may say that is because they have done nothing suspicious, but a more experienced player is going to be dropping fewer clues.  Everyone in this game is spewing information.  Surely somewhere in all that mess you can see something, even if I'm entirely blind to it.

Don't assume doctors, because they might not exist.  You might certainly die, because you're a pain in the neck to deal with and kind of scary with your tendency to "instructive insults."  Though you are saying dakarian is the most logical choice due to his analytical posts, that doesn't really make sense.  You already stated that you were prone to walls of text as well, but other people don't like them.  This means that you are capable of the same analytical spewage as dakarian, but you are hiding it from everyone with this flimsy excuse of PR.  However, it is evident that you don't care that much about what other people think of you, given your predilection for personal attacks on other people.  Your excuse is gone, and you're simply hiding behind a purported care for others' sentiments.

I was not the one who said everyone who lynched Org was suspicious and that there was no reason to.  Do not conflate me with ToonyMan.  I have even explicitly said that I trust dakarian--so again, we have the situation where you are either lying or can't remember what was said two pages ago.  Given your memory of other events, I am forced to think that you are lying.

This is the most half-assed "going for eduren" I can imagine, in fact.  I said this explicitly: "I am voting for eduren while I get myself combobulated."  Currently, I am gunning for you.  I am certain you can see the difference.

Next, you have a tendency to ignore people's questions.  You don't get called on it, because you're Fortress Webadict, the Man of Crazy Tells.  Well, perhaps you should answer them.  There are several instances of this, and I don't see why you should be exempt from answering others' queries when everyone else is constantly forced to step up to yours.

I will also submit here that ToonyMan is getting away with FoS'ing four people simultaneously, where you are blaming me for voting one and FoS'ing another.  Interesting--so the behavior is fine in Toony, but not in me?  Furthermore, now you're accusing three people of being scum: myself, Jim Groovester, and dakarian.  Would you mind picking and choosing some, rather than randomly flailing all over the place?

Then, you are accusing me of "trying to appear like I am scumhunting."  No.  I am trying to scumhunt.  I pressured Org not because Org hadn't explained his reasoning, but because Org had not contributed anything to the dialogue--as I keep on saying.  If I were attacking Org for failing to explain his reasoning, I would have tried to do the same to ToonyMan.  You may note, however, that I didn't do so.  Yes, I lurker-hunted.  So did Jim Groovester, and yet for some reason you aren't jumping all over him and trying to eat him.

"This is the same. It's just a bad thing in general to ask. And then he generalizes the question. He's still NOT focusing. He's being as broad as he possibly can to avoid suspicion."
--Referring, of course, to my question to eduren and Org.  I actually don't understand why this is a bad thing to ask.  If you don't like the question, then perhaps you should have answered my query at the very beginning of the game--that being "How do I know the difference between a good question and a bad question?"  No one answered, so of course I'm asking questions you think are dumb.

That three-way question was a final attempt to get more information out of the three potential lynchees.  Pitting them against each other seemed like a good thing to do, though I suppose that in your book it isn't.  Also, it makes sense that I added ToonyMan to the table, no?  If I didn't add him and he ended up being scum, you would have tried to ream me for letting him slip by.  Now you're trying to attack me because I added him.  It seems that I would be attacked either way; once again you're probing me with yesterday's question, just wrapped up with a bow this time around.

No, the point is not that everyone else has to prove they're not mafia.  The point is that I was going to say you had provided me with an unprovable conundrum (which I know know is called Burden of Proof), and then various other people showed up and said that you were being unreasonable.  If I made a similar statement, you would be able to attack me for failing to come up with original material.  If I said "I am scum-hunting and forcing people to actually show up for the game with useful information," you will tell me I am going for the easy targets.  Someone has to do it.  Everyone needs to be attacked at some point, and no one wants to be left with the burden of having "gone for the easy lynches."  If I get lynched for attacking lurkers but you manage to find the scum there, it will have been worth it.

I didn't say I "just went along with lynching Org."  What I said was that "Org was suspiciously silent."  If you need me to blatantly say "I suspect Org, the silent one," then I can do that.  I thought my voting was enough to say that I wanted him lynched and effectively express my opinion.  If that's not enough, than what is?  No, I didn't push that hard for Org.  Surprisingly, I actually care about what other people think, and value their judgments.  I'm playing this game to learn, and I can't do that if I'm trying to bowl everyone else over.  So, I will say it even more explicitly: I wanted Org lynched.  I made a mistake in my judgment and opinion, and probably should have listened to ToonyMan.  Instead, I stuck to my guns.  I was incorrect about him, and that's unfortunate.


Is that enough defense and attack for you, or do you require even more?

UnvoteWebadict.
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ToonyMan

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #376 on: August 08, 2009, 02:37:57 pm »

One of you is scum.  I say double lynch!  Hah!  Just need a vote count...
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Vector

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #377 on: August 08, 2009, 02:58:42 pm »

By the way, I'm sorry about any incoherency on my part.  I'm still trying to figure out the insert quote function, so if any points need to be clarified I'll be glad to do so.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Free Beer

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #378 on: August 08, 2009, 03:07:09 pm »

One of you is scum.  I say double lynch!  Hah!  Just need a vote count...

I think it's:

webadict - Jim Groovester, Vector
Vector - Free Beer, webadict
ToonyMan - eduren

abstain - dakarian, ToonyMan

but don't quote me on that.

First off, answers to Free Beer.

1. I kept my vote on Org because even with his defensive posts, he was still not providing useful information for the town.  Though he managed to put up a mild shield, he did not answer any of the questions posed to him, and he defended himself only when it was easy and required no analysis.

Also, my thought was that webadict was a strong proponent of the Org lynch, while ToonyMan was going for eduren.  Given that I considered ToonyMan town at the time (after his varied frustrated posts), I was more interested on getting information about webadict.  Therefore, Org seemed like a better choice.

2. To be honest, I'm starting to draw away from eduren.  He seems like a confused newb who doesn't really know what he's doing, and his behavior has greatly changed after complaints.  Of course, that could be a mafia ploy... So, my suspicion is turning more strongly towards webadict, but I would not be at all surprised if he were working with eduren.  I'll explain more about that later.

3. I am currently inclined to think that ToonyMan is town, mostly due to reading more posts of his in other threads.  First of all, he seems to be acting normally for him; secondly, he has engaged in no behavior I can fully consider suspicious; third, he never reacted with panic or anger, but only frustration and a kind of weariness.  Perhaps his emotional cloaking is better than I imagine, but at this point his reaction seemed far more fitting of town than scum.

4. BloodBeard seems like someone one would kill because he's in the middle.  He isn't spewing detailed posts like ToonyMan, dakarian, or webadict, but he also isn't doing stupid things right and left that would get him lynched.  Also, he tended towards lurkerdom, so he had very few damning connections to other people.

You just voted webadict. What do you think of Jim Groovester? Does his argument persuade you? Or are you voting webadict primarily on your own suspicions?

Also, what do you think of Jim Groovester's actions on Day One? How do you think they compare to your own actions in the same time frame?
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ToonyMan

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #379 on: August 08, 2009, 03:10:41 pm »

I'm going to hold my vote back right now then if it's even.
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Free Beer

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #380 on: August 08, 2009, 03:12:57 pm »

I'm going to hold my vote back right now then if it's even.

Whoa, hold up. Why? Shouldn't you be judging it based on merit, rather than going with the majority?
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ToonyMan

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #381 on: August 08, 2009, 03:17:25 pm »

Ok.  Fine.  I'll vote webadict right now.  I would like a double lynch.
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Vector

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #382 on: August 08, 2009, 03:19:59 pm »

Ah, I was thinking that he wanted things to be more tense so that both of us had equal heat and were equally as likely to screw up.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Free Beer

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #383 on: August 08, 2009, 03:34:39 pm »

Ok.  Fine.  I'll vote webadict right now.  I would like a double lynch.

Oh. That's what you were going for.

    In order for a lynch to occur, over half of the players must have voted. The player with the most votes against them will be lynched. In the event of a tie no one will be lynched.
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ToonyMan

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #384 on: August 08, 2009, 03:37:06 pm »

Oh, I forgot about that.  Great.  There goes my game-breaking strategy dudes.

I'll keep my vote on webadict.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #385 on: August 08, 2009, 03:41:34 pm »

The Whiteboard
ToonyMan: eduren
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
webadict: Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, Vector
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Vector

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #386 on: August 08, 2009, 05:04:09 pm »

You just voted webadict. What do you think of Jim Groovester? Does his argument persuade you? Or are you voting webadict primarily on your own suspicions?

Also, what do you think of Jim Groovester's actions on Day One? How do you think they compare to your own actions in the same time frame?

Hurray, quote function vaguely figured out.

1. Jim Groovester's argument has little bearing on my own.  Though I am of course thankful for him defending me, I can see situations in which webadict's sudden attacks on me could be valid.  The rest of the dodging and weaving (and especially the lying), however, appears quite suspect.

2. I will admit that my actions were fairly similar to Jim Groovester's on the first day, but (from my end, at least), they were essentially independent.  His reasoning seemed fine to me, and I don't have any strong suspicion of him (though some behavior did look vaguely like bandwagoning.  It seems pointless, though, to suspect every second-voter).  If I were to throw out a situation in which he might be scum, however, I'd go with a link between him and ToonyMan, with Toony providing the frustrated post and Jim pointing it out here.

Of course, I don't believe that.  I'm just throwing it out there as one of many far-fetched possibilities.


I also find this post by webadict interesting:

Yes, I think eduren is very suspicious, but what about the others that choose not to post too often like Org, dakarian, Bloodbeard, or Jim Groovester? Have we forgotten them because they were silent?

To me, that sounds like someone who's trying to start a lurker-hunt.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Eduren

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #387 on: August 08, 2009, 05:28:21 pm »

New developments are interesting and confusing. Ill Unvote for now. Some opinions when I get back.
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dakarian

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #388 on: August 08, 2009, 06:36:06 pm »

Alright, let's see

Warning: written during my scan.. so it starts off a little broken then rolls from there.
Vector



Random vote jim

Voted me (lurking).  Felt Eduren was "a fool"
1. I'm not trying to vote eduren yet, so there are no contestas right now.

2. dakarian is an unknown quality.  I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but eduren seems like a fool.  I will probably end up voting for him when it actually comes to lynching, but right now I think it's more important to get dakarian out here and talking.

It's not that I think dakarian is dangerous.  It's that eduren seems not-that-dangerous, mostly silly.  My guess is that he's going to get lynched, which would be good; however, before the end of the first day, I would really like more information from people like dakarian and whatever other lurkers I've forgotten about.


Now, it can make sense to go after me since I hadn't spoken yet, but you seem a little wish wash on Eduren.  He's not dangerous, but he's going to be lynched. 

Also, to ToonyMan: if you are a townie, perhaps you should be more helpful.  Screwing around with eduren != helpful.  We already know he's scummish.  The fact that webadict and eduren want to lynch you doesn't mean they're scum, either.  It means they think you're scum.  Your logic is fallacious.

This has led me to be even more confused.  You know he's scummish, but the fact that he wants to lynch toony may not mean he's scum?  Do you think he's scum or do you not? 


Apperently not, since after I softened your suspicions you aim for Org instead. 

Sidenote:  I also notice this:

So can I suppose a vote for Toonyman would be wasted?

Depends on wasted.  If you maintain a line against him for a few days and he ends up flipping scum, you'll probably be absolved (because it would be kind of weird for scum to bus scum on the first day).  If you maintain a line on him and he flips town, you are going to look pretty stupid/scummish.  The optimization is up to you.

Given that you were the first to go after Org and, although casted lots of suspicion on Eduren, ended up being the first vote for Org during the final casting.  By your own judgement, you don't look well.


Now that Org died:

2. At the moment, I'm vaguely worried about eduren and webadict, though I think the latter is much less likely than the former.  The latter isn't an OMGUS FoS so much as wondering about what happened with Org, because it seems almost like we were leveraged by his superior knowledge of previous games of mafia to kill one of our own.  Org's behavior definitely didn't help at all, but I think the eduren lynch would have gone through if not for webadict's accusation.  I can't fully say that he's suspicious.  He looks and smells town.  However, I believe that the range of his experience would allow him to masquerade as such quite readily, while we trust his direction like blind sheep.

But you voted before Web.  If Web is guilty of pushing for Org's death, what does it show of you who spearheaded the vote?

Then Jim defended you, leading to Web's logical falacy which had me jump at him.  Then Jim says:

I think it's about time we start casting our final votes. We've discussed who's suspicious at length, but the day ends at 10:00 AM Pacific time tomorrow, and unless you plan on waking up before that time (I'm a college student, I certainly don't plan on it), the votes we cast before bed will probably be our last. I think we should reach some sort of consensus before that time, so that we don't waste an opportunity to get some actual information about somebody.

My vote on Org remains unchanged. If he's scum, he sucks at being scum. If he's town, he sucks at being town, too. He hasn't really satisfied anybody's suspicions, and has generally been uncooperative and defiant.

Now note, Vector wasn't the first to vote for Org... Jim was the first to vote for Org in a nonrandom way.


So.. Jim was the first to vote for org, though pulls away to OMGUS Blood (don't read too much there, it ended quickly), and later goes for Org again.  Vector eventually votes for Org as well, no matter how 'scummy' eduren looks.  Jim defends Vector against Web, then pushes to end the vote.

Now that the day is over, Web was 'pushing the vote for org' and Eduren is suspect, but STILL not voted on, and the two are STILL in sync.

The Whiteboard
ToonyMan: eduren
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
webadict: Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, Vector

Sidenote:  Day 1's ending...
The Whiteboard
BloodBeard: Free Beer
Org: Jim Groovester, Vector, dakarian, webadict
ToonyMan: eduren
eduren: BloodBeard, ToonyMan

There, I answered the question of who I think is scum.  Vote Jim,  Vector tomarrow, unless you two could defend yourselves as Eduren did.

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dakarian

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Re: Beginners Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #389 on: August 08, 2009, 06:42:14 pm »

Wow, that was VERY broken.  'Spearheaded' comment was due to me thinking Vector was the first vote. I had to look back to find that Jim was the first vote:  Voted due to lurkingness, then turned to blood for a second, then turned to me for lurking, then BACK to Org. 
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What was I doing with Mr.Person through most of Day 3, lovemaking!?
I KNEW IT!
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