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[smariot]

Still, one shouldn't underestimate the power of mind over manner. I remember one story I heard (that may or may not be just an urban legend) about some train worker who got locked in a refrigerated car over the weekend. They found him dead, having turned the whole car into a room full of crazy going on about how cold it was carved into every wall. The refrigerated car had been unpluged all weekend. He willed himself to death by honestly thinking he was catching hypothermia

For some reason, that made me think of this. (long, strange read)

[Siquo]

If you were right before and wrong now, it's still growth that's called regression.

But how would you know what is right? If you were wrong before, and start believing in something right, you did believe that something that was wrong, was actually right. The growth is that you learn that even though you think you're right now, doesn't mean you'll think those ideas will be right forever. Nobody changes their entire belief without a valid reason, with very subjective values for "valid". You think valid is rational, other people might argue that only emotion is valid. So if a certain religion "just feels better", they consider that a valid reason to change their beliefs.

You mention "going forward". Luddites would probably see our "going forward" as "going backward", so forward and backward are always relative to your beliefs. Therefore, any belief-change is going forward. The guy who became Catholic got a richer social life from that change, one could see that as "going forward".

I also had to laugh at "if you're going to convert an Atheist, you'd better bring proof", because there is no proof that there is no God (there's occams razor and other logic, but not "proof")

[Jackrabbit]

Okay, seriously, what was that last sentence for? We know there is no proof God doesn't exist just like we know there is no proof he does. That's what almost all of the arguing in this thread has been about. How, then, do you manage to bring it back up and make it sound even stupider and more futile? What the hell else are you going to bring someone who will not believe something without proof? Tea? MaximumZero's statement is completely valid - that you are not going to convert someone who, again, requires proof to believe, if you don't have any proof, so it's not something that's going to happen yet you still respond like he's somehow said something stupid. Why?

[Shade-o]

Right is wrong and backwards is forwards, our reality is shaped by perception and truthiness is paramount!

You talk in circles, but that's OK. Boo runs in them.

[Starver]

I think the problem with the idea of proof is that some people think of Atheism as being exclusively a positive position that comes from proof positive that there is no deity.  While there is a full-on denial aspect for some atheists, most (inclusive of Dawkins) are actually come from the "absence of proof that there is" direction.  Either from having been a implicit atheist and never been drawn into any form of theism or having been religiously instructed but had that 'proof' shown false, much as just mentioned with the Sharpie[1] incident.

And most of the straw men drawn up by the religious is an attempt to discredit the "proof that there isn't"... which doesn't really hold water, because it's not even part of the equation.

Anyway, that's my POV.  YMMV.


[1] Which I understand to being a brand of highlighter pen, but sounded at first like a scalpel-like thing.

[Leafsnail]

Nobody said that. Tsk, fundi atheists everywhere...

Sigh.

Admitting that you've been wrong all along and choosing a new path, instead of desperately clinging to your old ideas, that is growth.

Joining a cult is "growth"?  Developing a mental illness, beginning to wear tinfoil hats and saying that aliens are after you is "growth"?

Not that finding religion is at all equivalent to these things, but you can't just say "Old ideas bad, new ideas good".

Overcoming an addiction is growth, and relinquishing everything you've ever believed in is growth. Yes, even if you were right before and wrong now, it's still growth. Dropping your religion for atheism is growth, and so is vice-versa. Giving up what you believe in is HARD. Especially if you KNOW for certain that you are RIGHT.

What you've described in the last 2 sentences sounds like self delusion.

You mention "going forward". Luddites would probably see our "going forward" as "going backward", so forward and backward are always relative to your beliefs.

One good reason to assess which way you're going when you're changing your beliefs.

MaximumZero's conversion was awesome.  I also gave up after reading the bible (I never felt any kind of presence of god before then, though) although not in nearly as rigorous a fashion .

Maybe I could try doing it with a word file...

[smigenboger]

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


(that one hurt just saying it)

[Medicine Man]

Damn it... Oh how I hate puns...

[Bauglir]

Guys, guys, guys. We're missing the big picture here.

Brie or Camembert?

[Medicine Man]

Brie. Brie has a more buttery texture.

[Sergius]

Admitting that you've been wrong all along and choosing a new path, instead of desperately clinging to your old ideas, that is growth.

Drop everything guys, the world is actually flat. Believe it, you'll grow as a person.

Shrinking is growth!

EDIT: Forgot to add tons of winkies, to fool ya into thinking let you know I'm not being confrontational:

Reality is not consensual. Believing something is right doesn't make it right. Just because you can't tell if you were wrong before doesn't mean you aren't. Even if NOBODY can tell if you're right or wrong, you're either right or wrong. You, however, should want to be AS RIGHT AS IT IS POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO KNOW. And you must make your BEST EFFORT to know whether you are right or not.

[GlyphGryph]

I know there really hasn't been a mention of it recently (or if there was, I missed it) but I always found the omnipotence argument a bit weird. Like every aspect of it, even the opposition to it. I'm not even sure what people mean when they say omnipotent.

I mean, think about DF, a real example. One could say Toady is God (or that we are all, collectively, god). Are we all powerful? Well, outside of the game we obviously aren't, but in regards to the game we sort of are. We could, if we were so inclined, alter specific bits in the code to accomplish whatever it is we wanted, and we could do it instantaneously as well. It doesn't mean we have the time or inclination.

Toady could be said to be all powerful and all knowing since he built everything about DF, but the game still does things he doesn't expect often enough, because he's working through a system and dealing with other elements outside of the game that can influence the game. But once we've started playing the rules he set up, he can't really control it anymore...

So yeah, basically, what I'm asking is: What does omnipotence even mean? Are DF players omnipotent in regards to DF?

(totally just finding excuses to avoid working...)

[Siquo]

Okay, seriously, what was that last sentence for?

A joke, therefore: the winky He said you should only become atheist if you have proof, but there's no proof for atheism (or theism, for that matter). I found that funny.

Joining a cult is "growth"?  Developing a mental illness, beginning to wear tinfoil hats and saying that aliens are after you is "growth"?

Believe it or not, yes it is. People who have suffered are usually the more interesting ones. They have had one or more points in life where they realised they were wrong about something. People who have believed weird stuff and finally realised it was weird and stopped, are way more interesting than people who didn't believe it in the first place.

Let me (stay with me now) take a bible parable (I'll keep it short, promise!):
Two brothers: One pious and devout, the other living life to the max. Eventually, both die, and come to heaven. God favours the rebellious one above the one who has devoted his life to God. The pious one is enraged and asks why. God answers that the other brother has, at the en of his life, come to the realisation that what he had been doing was wrong. He knew what he gave up when he chose for God.

In b4 hatin: IT'S A PARABLE. Meant to be interpreted as widely as possible. Even the bible says that changing your mind is good (too bad most believers disagree).

Not that finding religion is at all equivalent to these things, but you can't just say "Old ideas bad, new ideas good".

Sure I can. As all ideas are equal in worth, being able to see the merit of other ideas makes you a fuller person.

What you've described in the last 2 sentences sounds like self delusion.

And once you realise that that is ALL WE HAVE, there you go. The meaning of Reality is what you make of it. So is the "worth" of an idea.

Yes, we all fall down, but is that good or bad? Yes, pi is about 3.14159265, but is that good or bad? Any kind of belief or value or moral or meaning is completely made up, and so are yours. Being aware that you have been delusional at some point in life, is a good thing.

MaximumZero's conversion was awesome.  I also gave up after reading the bible (I never felt any kind of presence of god before then, though) although not in nearly as rigorous a fashion .

Sure, I like informed decisions, too, but I realise that many people don't think that way, and am not so delusional to think that my way of thinking is somehow better than theirs.

So yeah, basically, what I'm asking is: What does omnipotence even mean? Are DF players omnipotent in regards to DF?

(totally just finding excuses to avoid working...)

Me, too

And yeah, I believe omnipotence is like Toady: Can do everything IN our universe (multiverse, whatever), and whatever powers it has outside are never measurable (since it's outside), so they are irrelevant.

[Tack]

Well, to be honest, my personal motto is 'don't dis it before you try it'. I smoked before I started coughing annoyingly loud in front of smokers, I read twilight before I started throwing off at the fans- While I don't always have an open viewpoint when I try it, I at least make sure I can see it from the other side of the line. So far, the only things I've not done this for are a bunch of hallucinogens and depressants (Pot, etc). And that's mostly because I have a nice big bunch of recessive mental illnesses in my genes. And it's Illegal, but that's just a byword.
To cease my digression, I've also read the bible. And I have to say, it was at least an interesting book. A lot of Atheists explicitly have nothing to do with the bible, but to be honest, I think they're as near-sighted as the Christians who declaim Harry Potter. While the writing is a little stilted, and the tiny numbers get damn annoying, I found it to be pretty enjoyable, from a purely fictional viewpoint.

But I couldn't see why someone would actually believe in god. Sure, we could all be better people if we followed some of the main tenents, but honestly, I think that's more just being a Good Person- and you can quite easily do that as an atheist. Besides, a lot of people killed, raped and stole in the name of Christianity, which doesn't really suit the ten commandments very well.


...


I mean- Camembert is my personal favourite. But I think that if you want to indulge in the simple things, nothing goes better than melted mozzi. It's classier than cheddar, but it still has that delicious greasy taste.

[Il Palazzo]

Ah, Siquo, Siquo. This thread would've been dead ages ago if not for you.
It's my turn to play the game now:

As all ideas are equal in worth, being able to see the merit of other ideas makes you a fuller person.

No, not all ideas are equal in worth. I've no idea where did you get that from.
That was an extremaly polarized statement. You completely disregard the possiblity of an idea being dumb, or, less strongly put, having faults as well as merits.
One needs to be able to see those, and not just happily convert to all the ideas he stumbles upon.