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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 404256 times)

RAM

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3465 on: April 22, 2010, 10:29:46 pm »

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I can assume that what I observe through my senses is accurate. If it were not accurate, I would not ever be able to observe that it was not accurate, after all, so it would make no difference to me.

This is not entirely true.  Your senses can be partially accurate.  Your senses could be inaccurate until a point where they become accurate and you come to a full realization they were previously inaccurate.  I could tell you they are inaccurate and give you evidence on why they are (giving evidence to a deaf person on why we can hear and they can not).  All but one sense could be accurate.  Or all senses but one could be accurate.  Your senses could be accurate, but your memories partially inaccurate and accurate.  Or your senses could be accurate and your memory entirely inaccurate.  You could temporarily be in a reality that you will be taken out of, like the matrix.  So what basis can you assume everything in your reality is perfectly accurate?  The agnostic position would be "I do not believe they are accurate" because absolute truth has not been established.  I've been arguing that it is no more reasonable to assume your senses are accurate than to assume the existence of god being unreasonable is accurate.  Neither, at our current state, can be tested. 

But how can you assume I cannot observe them?  I am the divine unicorn.  How could you possibly take a stance on that, since you cannot observe my divinity.
You are not the divine unicorn, if you were your hooves would be too large and unwieldy to type on a keyboard
  Neighing would not be compatible with voice recognition.
    Why use magic to print text on a forum when you could be using magic to speaking to people directly?
      If you were really a unicorn god you would be doing a better job to represent your people...



It is equally valid to say that "the monitor I am looking at definitely exists" and "The god that is obviously a result of evolving stories definitely does not exist". They are both appropriate assertions within the scenario in which one chooses to exist. It is equally valid to say that both lack continuous proof to absolute base principals and therefore cannot be proven, but that way lies madness...
MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAHAHAHA heh HAA HAA hee weehee HAHAaaaaaaaargh!



. Generally, I think that the polite thing to do is just not bring it up unless the conversation swings that way, and once you do, you drop it once somebody else says they're getting uncomfortable or starts getting angry about it.

Part of it is also the attitude; a lot of evangelism comes off as "You're wrong, listen to my way." It's not so much evangelism, I suppose, as zealotry that irritates me, and every belief set seems to have some people that suffer from that, including Atheism.


 The main thing that annoys me about the common atheist arguments is that they frequently discuss blind faith and the cruelties that religion can lead to, ignoring that it's not unheard of for atheists to display the very same problems.
This is an appropriate forum for religious debate, choosing to partake of this thread is choosing to be involved in a religious debate. To enter a debate about religion and expecting others to cease because it causes discomfort on is imposing their will upon others and severely restricting their freedoms...

Transfer of knowledge requires assertions, you object to extremely arrogant and/or forceful assertions, but where exactly is the point at which is becomes a problem?

Atheism is compatible with blind faith, religion requires it. It is impossible to fix the problem while religion persists. If people can understand the problems with religion, which are obvious, perhaps they will be able to see the problems in more mundane forms of obsession.
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smigenboger

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3466 on: April 22, 2010, 10:35:38 pm »

I guess for the senses = reality it could be true for subjective reality, but not objective reality. What we experience is far from objective reality. The closest thing we have to OR would be math, but even that is completely subjective.

For an example, compare an experience on shrooms compared to sobriety. From what I've heard, its rather disorienting and very subjective. Now, comparing objective reality to subjective, subjective is as far from the truth as shrooms are to sobriety
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Kebooo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3467 on: April 22, 2010, 10:51:41 pm »

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You are not the divine unicorn, if you were your hooves would be too large and unwieldy to type on a keyboard

I conjured up a very large keyboard with my divine powers and I wanted to infiltrate this forum to better understand humanity.  I will grant you one wish...
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3468 on: April 22, 2010, 10:54:13 pm »

Ooooh Icecream!
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silverskull39

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3469 on: April 22, 2010, 10:56:53 pm »

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I believe that a higher power is the only option, for the sole reason that if you go back in time far enough, eventually you run out of causation. What I mean to say is, no one knows how the universe started. There are theories and whatnot. Take any of them and ask this; What happened to cause the universe? What happened to cause that? And what happened before that? ... and so on. Eventually you are going to run out of logical answers.

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Dwarf fortress threads can sound so.... unethical
it would be unethical if this wasn't the bay12 forums
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3470 on: April 22, 2010, 11:07:44 pm »

Ooooh Icecream!

No no! Double icecream!
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masam

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3471 on: April 22, 2010, 11:08:03 pm »

[snip = space]
edit:  I know I've shifted topics, but the main reason I'm so vocal right now is because of the state of things.

The main reason I'm so vocal is because I'm a quarter way through a bottle of 151 in about... 2 hours.

Silverskull:  Yes we do run out of causation but there are theories for that.  One is the entrophic (entropic?) decay of energy.  This universe is actually, very slowly losing energy through various "tears" in it.  we have no idea where this energy is going, and it is one of the theories behind the big bang.  eventually the energy will be expended, having left our universe completely and gone into another.  when this energy in it's many forms, (althoug mostly heat and light.) reaches a critical mass, a similar effect to the big bang occurs, and causes the heat and light to take on different forms of energy, both kinetic and potential in the forms of elements or light or electricity.  We, unfortunately will collapse through the tears, and reform in to the newest incarnation of the big bang.  Of course, that argument also leads to the possiblity that it was a planned function of a creator, to "reboot" the universe until it has a sentient being that can patch the holes and create a "utopian universe."  I'm rambling a bit, and sharing some of the stuff my friends and I discuss as nothing more than possibilities, usually while drinking.  Currently this thread is taking the place of my friends.  *sips booze happily*

Also...is the ice cream booze flavored?
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Metroid

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3472 on: April 22, 2010, 11:08:13 pm »

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I believe that a higher power is the only option, for the sole reason that if you go back in time far enough, eventually you run out of causation. What I mean to say is, no one knows how the universe started. There are theories and whatnot. Take any of them and ask this; What happened to cause the universe? What happened to cause that? And what happened before that? ... and so on. Eventually you are going to run out of logical answers.

Are you, by any chance, someone who enjoyed English class a lot? Because religious people and people who are really "good" at English tend to think that there's a reason behind everything. Also, if we run out of logical answers then what you just told us is that you believe your final answer, that a higher power exists, is illogical... >_>
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masam

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3473 on: April 22, 2010, 11:15:59 pm »

An unlikely answer is still a possible answer metroid..

O.o  o.O  think on that.  until an answer can be disproven, it can't be excluded.  Occam's razor says that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.  Has science improved enough to the point to give us the simple answer?  No.  While I myself am a fan of science and religion, the simplest answer for people to accept so far is faith that it was done. So using the occam's razor method, simple faith is the easiest solution, and therefore, the correct one.  (Just making a controversial statement.  have fun guys!)
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Metroid

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3474 on: April 22, 2010, 11:24:33 pm »

Well, then, I guess I'll wait for the Babel fish to show up and work its magic.
Then again, I'm not opposed to religion...I agree with what someone said MUCH earlier in the thread. I agree that religion provides a lot for a large amount of people, and that for those people it's a necessity. I just don't like it because I've been forced to be around a lot of crazy-religious people...Like, the kind that are way too into the whole thing. I think that some people need to take responsibility for their actions instead of blaming "the Devil and his ways", which is basically what my mom's church would tell me was the cause of everything when I was a kid. I also don't like religion because of all of the fighting, and I like science (though it too is not perfect) because it brings things to us in an understandable manner instead of just relying on hope. Whatever, that's all just how I feel.
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silverskull39

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3475 on: April 22, 2010, 11:26:40 pm »

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I believe that a higher power is the only option, for the sole reason that if you go back in time far enough, eventually you run out of causation. What I mean to say is, no one knows how the universe started. There are theories and whatnot. Take any of them and ask this; What happened to cause the universe? What happened to cause that? And what happened before that? ... and so on. Eventually you are going to run out of logical answers.

Are you, by any chance, someone who enjoyed English class a lot? Because religious people and people who are really "good" at English tend to think that there's a reason behind everything. Also, if we run out of logical answers then what you just told us is that you believe your final answer, that a higher power exists, is illogical... >_>

Everyone believes there is a reason for everything. The only thing that differs is what that "reason" is. Religious people say the reason is god's plan and so forth. Athiests say it is simple probability, or it is just how the math works out, so to speak.  And so what if my answer is illogical? That is, in fact, exactly what I was implying; When we run out of logical answers, the only ones we can turn to are the illogical, in this case it is the implication of a higher power. Does it make sense? no, not really. But what other answer is there? Then again, with my luck I'm wrong about this and there's actually a nice tidy little explanation for why everything decided to exist. such is life.
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Dwarf fortress threads can sound so.... unethical
it would be unethical if this wasn't the bay12 forums
Bay12: A short, sturdy forum fond of !!science!! and derailment.
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Now back to your regularly scheduled thread derailment.

masam

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3476 on: April 22, 2010, 11:28:28 pm »

ooooh i know what you mean.  Actually a good example...althoug I'm ashamed to admit I watch this, is "True Blood." One of the characters mothers is an abusive alcoholic.  She blames the devil for her problems.  except for the fact that a person knowledgable in their beliefs would be aware of their ability to "ignore" him and "defeat" him with the help of god. They make excuses for their bad behavior when if they actually believed what the preached they'd learn from it and find a way to overcome their weaknesses.

Sorry if i'm slow to reply, i'm playing earthbound.  An oldschool RPG that is one of the reasons I believe in a higher power.
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RAM

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3477 on: April 23, 2010, 12:08:57 am »

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I believe that a higher power is the only option, for the sole reason that if you go back in time far enough, eventually you run out of causation. What I mean to say is, no one knows how the universe started. There are theories and whatnot. Take any of them and ask this; What happened to cause the universe? What happened to cause that? And what happened before that? ... and so on. Eventually you are going to run out of logical answers.
This is easily solved by infinite causality, either through looping or simple infinite progression. And furthermore your solution completely fails to address the problem, as any creator would itself have no justification for its own existence. To say that this creator is beyond time still does not place it beyond causality, and to say that it is beyond causality is as valid as saying that more mundane forces sources are beyond causality.
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Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
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masam

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3478 on: April 23, 2010, 12:11:49 am »

Ram: as you say, an ifinite god wouldn't worry about causality.  An ifinite god would just say :I created the universe to become causal.  so it repeats ad infinitum  an infite god could create a universe that obeys laws it isn't bound by, just to confuse us.
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Urist McOverlord

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3479 on: April 23, 2010, 01:33:49 am »

I like to think that God (if real) is a really bored man, in an infinite desert, stimulating our universe by iterating the code over an infinite string of rocks...

But in all seriousness, a Creator does not solve the problem of primary cause. After all, what came before God? Ands what was God standing on when he pushed the plunger on the ACME Big Bang universal TNT?
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