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[Tormy]

I've talked with an old mate of mine about WoW recently, and I began to think....some of the special abilities from WoW could fit well into the DF gameworld also. However I am not sure that how could these work, since we don't have "cooldowns" in the game. Also I am not going to list any magic related special abilities.

Ok let's see, some examples:
[Note: Attacker = the creature, which uses the special ability.]

Charge:
Charge an enemy, and stun it for a short period of time. + Knockback effect if the attacker's SIZE is considerably bigger.
Disarm:
Disarm the enemy's weapon for a short period of time. Disarm should not be possible, if the attacker's SIZE is considerably smaller.
Cleave:
A sweeping attack that does damage to the target and his nearest ally, if they are both within the weapon's reach.
Shield Slam:
Requires a shield to be equipped. Slams the opponent with a shield.  + Knockback effect if the attacker's SIZE is considerably bigger.
Whirlwind:
In a whirlwind of steel the creature attacks up to 4 enemies within his weapon's reach.
Backstab:
Backstab the target, causing 150% damage.  Must be behind the target.
Ambush:
Ambush the target, causing 200% damage. Must be stealthed/invisible and behind the target.
Sap
Incapacitates the target for a short period of time. Only works on living beings.
Cheap Shot (ranged)
Stuns the target for a short period of time.
Blind
Blinds the target, causing it to wander disoriented for a period of time.
Sprint
Increases the creature's movement speed by 50% for a short period of time.
Safe Fall
Reduces damage from falling.
Evasion
Increases the creature's chance to dodge incoming attacks by 50% and reduces the chance ranged attacks hit the creature by 25%.
Hamstring
Maims the enemy, reducing movement speed by 50% for a short period of time.

[Silverionmox]

Most of these are just band-aids for the lack of a detailed body system. In DF, it's easily possible to just target the eyes or the hamstrings of an enemy, so adding special moves and special effects isn't necessary in most cases.

[zchris13]

Dude, those are basic stuff our dwarves do anyway.  Have you noticed?  Hitting somebody's leg with an axe tends to cripple them. Permanently.

[Tormy]

Most of these are just band-aids for the lack of a detailed body system. In DF, it's easily possible to just target the eyes or the hamstrings of an enemy, so adding special moves and special effects isn't necessary in most cases.

True, but those have permanent "effects" in DF. So there is a difference between hamstring and chopping down the leg of your enemy for example. 
Besides, this is just an example list. What if certain creatures could use dusts for example? [Blinding dust, Dust of confusion etc.] This would be a great addition for the various mischievous creatures. [Kobolds anyone?]

[woose1]

Ew. Magic.

[G-Flex]

DF seems to rely more on simulationist/complex character abilities rather than cookie-cutter "special abilities" and I like that. DF isn't WoW for a reason.

Like Silveriojnmox said, none of these are necessary if the DF combat/wounds systems are what they should be, since when/if they are, you could already charge people, or target their eyes, disarm them, and so forth.

[Mel_Vixen]

Well throwing dust etc. could cover eyes (Blindness) and cause pain. Other stuff like "Stunpowder" can be very shortlived contact/inhale poisons.

Hamstringing can be achieved by "Pain" etc which thanks to bruises and painreceptors is going in.

The only thing i see that isnt covered by the recent changes would be cleave and whirlwind.

[Iden]

Far too WoW-influenced than it should ever be. At least you acknowledge it being influenced by WoW. If I come off as a troll, I don't mean to. Just throwing in some feedback.

Charge:
I thought this was already done?
Disarm:
"Disarm the enemy's weapon for a short period of time." Short period of time? Completely unrealistic and silly. How about knock the weapon out of their hands (actually disarm them) until they go get their weapon. And if I recall correctly, you can disarm people using wrestling atm. Perhaps disarming with a weapon could be possible, on chance, if your (weapon skil + strength/grip)l > (opponents skill + strength/grip). Size shouldn't matter. In fact, being bigger would probably give you a higher force in your swing to knock weapons out of their hands.
Cleave:
Combat is nothing like WoW. Look into the SCA's Heavy Armored Combat. Attacking multiple armored opponents effectively (being able to actually do damage) in one swing would be amazing feat. Now if they were unarmored, and you're quite skilled in combat? maybe. Unlikely to happen in real combat though, and I never really saw Dwarf Fort as trying to edge away from realism.
Shield Slam:
I don't really see a problem here. Though I don't think a knockback is in order unless you charge with a shield. You'd need a lot of momentum to do so -- and likely leave yourself open to attac. Should help create an opening to attack normally.
Whirlwind:
Again, like Cleave. Impossible in real combat. Especially in heavy armored combat. You'd just get yourself killed.
Backstab & Ambush: Sneaking dwarves? We have military dwarves, but we don't have thief dwarves. I don't really think that should be an option, really. Maybe an option to hide, and maybe stealth, but to encourage thieves? Realistically, you should get a bonus to your To-Hit. From behind, a target is much easier to hit. Which translates into you being able to hit a more dangerous spot with a stronger hit. Which translates into more damage. Backstab and Ambush skills are useless.
Sap & Cheap Shot
Again, this isn't WoW. Sure, occasional stuns maybe, but to have skills to do this? Unrealistic. You hit a dwarf soldier over the head while he's got a helmet. What'll you accomplish? You'll get an axe to your jaw. Too unrealistic for DF's measure. Plus head trauma can make dwarves stupider and slower, if I recall correctly.
Blind
Maybe. "dust in the eyes", as Heph said -- very temporary stun.
Sprint
Take a jog in a set of armor. They are dwarves, after all.. but running top speed in armor is a feat in a half. Maybe for some unarmored dwarves to get a short speed burst naturally when running from danger, but nothing else.
Safe Fall
How often is falling a major issue? And how would one develop such a skill? I think it's a matter of dexterity/agility/luck/weight.
Evasion
Dwarves can already dodge.
Hamstring
Already able to damage legs.

[Neonivek]

How often is falling a major issue?

Two times

1) when a dragon throws you from a height

and

2) Whenever you are ontop a temple...

[Tormy]

Iden, I wasn't talking about special abilities for the dwarves, I was looking at this from a "global" perspective. Each and every creature should be very different in regard to special abilities. So for example: Trolls should have a "cleave" ability, but a kobolds shouldn't.
Kobolds should have an "evasion" ability, but trolls shouldn't etc. etc.
Also, it makes no sense when you write something like "Impossible in real combat". [In regard to your cleave/whirlwind sentences..]
We are talking about fantasy creatures here, and this is a fantasy strategy game. So I don't see any problems with trolls using a cleave type attack for example.

[Neonivek]

Some of these arn't really all that great reflected as a special ability but rather an ability got from Size and/or Attributes.

For example the reason the Troll would reasonably be able to strike multiple opponents is because with an axe he can easily run down an opponent with a side swing without slowing down enough to strike another.

If the Kobold had super strength and a large enough weapon (the super strength part is possible) then perhaps it could get a cleave too.

In the same way a weak and small Troll probably wouldn't get Cleave.

[Tormy]

Some of these arn't really all that great reflected as a special ability but rather an ability got from Size and/or Attributes.

Yep, correct, and it's all good...especially since these are "physical special abilities", so they should be linked to physical features.

[Footkerchief]

You should really edit your OP to remove all the "special abilities" that the game already has:
Charge -- already in, and works better than that
Disarm -- already in
Shield Slam -- already in, works better
Sap -- how is this a new ability in any way?
Cheap Shot -- you can stun people with ranged weapons already
Blind -- next version will let you add breath powders that target the eyes
Evasion -- dodging is already part of the wrestling skill, has its own skill in next version
Hamstring -- next version has tendons that you can slice

Also, it makes no sense when you write something like "Impossible in real combat". [In regard to your cleave/whirlwind sentences..]
We are talking about fantasy creatures here, and this is a fantasy strategy game. So I don't see any problems with trolls using a cleave type attack for example.

The creatures and the game world are fantasy, but Toady is putting a gigantic amount of work into making bodies, wounds, and later combat itself, as realistic and compelling as possible given the premises of the game world.  WoW does not have realistic or compelling combat.  It has people swiping at each other with weapons that don't even touch while their HP slowly goes down.

That said, your emphasis on disparate creature sizes is interesting and could probably be applied to existing combat mechanics in interesting ways.

[G-Flex]

Iden, I wasn't talking about special abilities for the dwarves, I was looking at this from a "global" perspective. Each and every creature should be very different in regard to special abilities. So for example: Trolls should have a "cleave" ability, but a kobolds shouldn't.
Kobolds should have an "evasion" ability, but trolls shouldn't etc. etc.
Also, it makes no sense when you write something like "Impossible in real combat". [In regard to your cleave/whirlwind sentences..]
We are talking about fantasy creatures here, and this is a fantasy strategy game. So I don't see any problems with trolls using a cleave type attack for example.

Here's an idea: Give the creatures different physical statistics and behavior and let those play out by themselves during the course of the game, using a realistic combat system.

Which is what DF is already going towards in the first place.

None of this ad-hoc WoW special move stuff.

[Iden]

Here's an idea: Give the creatures different physical statistics and behavior and let those play out by themselves during the course of the game, using a realistic combat system.

Which is what DF is already going towards in the first place.

None of this ad-hoc WoW special move stuff.

Orginally, this thread was created being "Special Abilities" -- Creatures having specific traits based on race or "class"/"job" is a completely different thing.

Now defining "job"/"class" in this game is a little different than in other games. This is just one reason other sorts of ideas, such as the concepts taken from WoW simply do not and will not work out in DF.

Skills are in. Special abilities? What are those? Special things you can do once you acquire a skill? Certainly a special ability requiring a weapon requires an appropriate weapon-skill. Personally I don't feel there really is a need for any sort of special abilities. Primarily on the list you provided are things that (for the most part) can be divided into two groups: Things that just sort of happen and actions.

Things that just sort of happen: A great example for this is Backstab. What is a backstab? Typically, it's a button you press when playing a lot of games. It's the action of stabbing someone in the back. Well, DF isn't the kind of button-wielding game that most games tend to be. It doesn't work. Well, what is a backstab, really? Well backstab is an attack made from behind a target -- typically such an attack would produce extra damage. Well, why increased damage? This isn't a standard game, so buttons don't work, standard ideas of damage and health certainly don't apply either. What was the concept of a backstab skill based on? Well being behind a target, getting an awesome hit in and doing some real damage, hopefully fatal. Well in DF, being behind a target should allow you a much greater chance to hit. Not as a skill, but any time. Whenever you catch somebody when they are unaware or unable to defend, you can get in a much stronger, accurate hit. With an increased accuracy, you can get a much more lethal hit. In DF, you'd be far more likely to damage organs and body parts. Extra damage isn't necessary. This isn't about grinding away thousands of points of health -- it's about solid hits. Solid hits mean injury! You see where i'm going?

This isn't something you necessarily do on purpose. Sure, you might move behind a person in order to get this result, but it's not a skill or specific action. It's just attack..... when you're behind someone. The attack isn't what makes the difference, it's the fact that you just happen to be attacking someone from where they can't defend. It just happened because of circumstances. It's not really a physical skill, and anyone can do it.

The only REAL problem here is for stuff like that... how does Toady decide which side is behind a person? My best guess is the last attack you made would be the facing direction?


Actions: A perfect example for this is disarm. Disarm isn't an ability.
>(MMO's and other games really do no favor to any sort of realism trying to be presented in true HAC. As Footkerchief helped to reinforce, Toady is trying to go for a degree of realism in the game, even if it >happens [appears?] to be in a low-magic fantasy setting.)

Disarm is an action somebody attempts in order to remove their opponents weapon to gain themselves an advantage. It should be apart of combat. Just like you can wrestle and try to gain holds on somebody, or wrestle a weapon from somebody, you should be able to attempt to disarm somebody. Also it should occasionally happen on a random chance. A higher skill in the appropriate skillset should improve the chances of advanced actions. As a higher wrestling skill should, in theory, improve your chances of grappling an opponent, thus a sword skill should allow you a better chance to disarm with a sword. A person who has never used a sword, but is suddenly forced to wield a sword, is likely to be more hard-pressed to defend himself than it is to see him suddenly disarming a foe who is skilled with his weapon.

I'll tell you what, i've done a small bit of Heavy Armored Combat in the SCA, and I wouldn't have the faintest idea of how to go about actuallydisarming somebody. It's something that i'd have to learn and practice. Chances are everyone can't disarm. Chances are everyone can figure out how to stab someone from behind. See the point?

Such actions implemented as apart of combat, and typically based on skills are perfectly acceptable, and totally realistic.


Undecided? Dodging/Evasion (in my opinion) kind of lies somewhere in between. Safe Fall as well. A lot takes into account these sort of things. How well you're able to move, the load you are carrying and how heavy and bulky it is, your speed, your opponents speed, and even luck. There's a certain degree of skill of dodging. Hence how dodging improves with wrestling. You learn to move and avoid blows. But a sudden burst in increased dodging is likely to not happen. For falling, the distance fallen makes up a big part. But if you're falling head-first 50 feet, chances are you aren't going to be landing safely. No skill or training would or could save you here. Not unless your dwarf has a parachuite, or can make one in a matter of seconds.

Technically speaking dodging is something you often do on purpose, but not something you have full control over. You do it on purpose, but it sometimes just kind of happens as a reflex, or you're simply unable to get out of the way.


Traits

Traits however, would be completely different from abilities and skills. Goblins just happen to be sneakier than [random race] (increased ambush skill). Dwarves happen to be sturdier than [random race] (increased health/endurance?). Kobolds are more agile than [random race] (naturally better at dodging, higher dodge). Trolls are stronger than [random race] (increased strength).

Different races have different traits. Different defining features. But these are not special abilities. They're facts. They just are. These would simply be modified attributes and skills based on certain conditions, primarily race.


Lastly

I don't mean to come off as an ass, my apologies if I do. And  my sincerest apologies for being so damned long-winded. ^^;