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[Leafsnail]

Critical hits do the same damage at any range, but explosive splash damage reduction still applies.  Also mini-crits aren't affected by damage fall-off but ARE affected by ramp-up (presumably to stop minicrits from being worse than a regular shot at close range).

The amby does seem a bit degenerate, some scripts can make it a pretty effective sniping tool.

[EnigmaticHat]

The basic problem with the ambassador is why not just snipe?  The ambassador has a built in mechanic where it's not perfectly accurate unless you stand still and wait a significant amount of time between shots, so its about as long a delay as reloading a sniper rifle.  A sniper quickscoping and headshotting will score 150 damage instead of 102.  Which will one-shot five different classes unless they're overhealed.

Personally I prefer the diamondback.  Getting kills with the ambassador/diamondback is all about getting two accurate shots off as fast as possible, and diamondback has no fire speed penalty.  Also I suck at headshots.

[Leafsnail]

Snipers can't cloak or disguise to get into really awkward positions behind enemy lines.  Also the ambassador doesn't have to scope-in to land headshots, which is a tactical advantage.  You probably aren't going to get heavies (although you can annoy them a lot) but it can slaughter light classes all day (all you need is a headshot and then a snap bodyshot to kill them).

The Diamondback is one of those weapons that's good if and only if you are much better than everyone else on the server.

[KingofstarrySkies]

I love it when I Ambassador snipers who have discovered me. Feels so fucking great. I remember once most of the enemy team were snipers, and I had a fucking field day.

[EnigmaticHat]

Snipers can't cloak or disguise to get into really awkward positions behind enemy lines.  Also the ambassador doesn't have to scope-in to land headshots, which is a tactical advantage.  You probably aren't going to get heavies (although you can annoy them a lot) but it can slaughter light classes all day (all you need is a headshot and then a snap bodyshot to kill them).

The Diamondback is one of those weapons that's good if and only if you are much better than everyone else on the server.

Yeah, Star's videos are great.  This is the dude who mained demoknight in 6v6 competitive games, remember.  So I'd take it with a grain of salt

Assuming you even know what I'm talking about.

I see what you're saying with DB but I don't entirely agree.  You underestimate the extent to which I am good at backstabs and bad at headshots.

[Leafsnail]

I don't actually know what you're talking about, or what that one joke demoknight competitive video has to do with anything.  Are you talking about that one camping double-headshot video or something?

If you're getting loads of backstabs then great, but if you're at that point then it doesn't really matter what gun you take because you're walking over them regardless.

[WealthyRadish]

The ambassador has a built in mechanic where it's not perfectly accurate unless you stand still and wait a significant amount of time between shots, so its about as long a delay as reloading a sniper rifle.

You don't need to stand still to get perfect accuracy with any weapon. The first shot of anything is always perfect, even with something like a pistol or SMG, and after 1.25 seconds of not firing it'll reset and be perfectly accurate again. Even shotguns always have one perfectly precise pellet before bullet spread becomes a factor. The ambassador has an even faster cooldown of 0.95 seconds, and even has a special reticle that shows when shots are accurate again. The reason why you see so many spies standing still while using the ambassador is because it's harder to get an accurate shot at long range without a scope while moving quickly.

For reference, sniper rifles take 1.7 seconds between scoped shots, and 1.5 seconds between unscoped. It's only 1.9 seconds for an ambassador spy to fire two perfectly accurate shots, and the second one usually doesn't even need to be a headshot, meaning if it's close range most won't even wait the extra 0.25 seconds, making it only 1.65 seconds to kill a sniper. If the sniper misses their first scoped shot, the spy has a huge advantage.

edit: maths hard

[Putnam]

That feature is newer than the Ambassador, which is why the ambassador has the special crosshair. The Ambassador is significantly less accurate than other revolvers when on cooldown.

[WealthyRadish]

Also worth noting that the 1.9 seconds for two shots is assuming they both miss the first one (otherwise the sniper's time to kill is always just 0.2), so if the sniper misses and the spy hits their first one, it's 1.7 for the sniper to try again and only 0.95/0.7 for the spy to finish him.

Is the ambassador really less accurate than other revolvers while bullet spread is in effect? They're all so inaccurate, I guess I never noticed. It always does amaze me when spies try to rapid fire with it, considering it's only 0.25 seconds to wait. But hey, if it's close range and the sniper missed, they're almost certainly dead anyway.

[Putnam]

The main disadvantage of the Ambassador back when it came out was that it had more bullet spread than the Revolver (the only alternative at the time). The revolver is actually pretty accurate.

Of course, that disadvantage was quickly replaced with it not doing as much damage as the revolver ever due to a slight buff to revolver damage making Ambassador's minicrits on headshot completely worthless.

[Leafsnail]

Realistically you're blindsiding them (due to the fact that you are a spy and they are a sniper, you should not be expecting to beat a sniper at their own game) and unless they can turn around and score a headshot in under 0.7 seconds (the time it takes for you to kill them with your followup bodyshot) their fire-rate and damage output is irrelevant.

Note that if you tried to do the same thing with the stock revolver they'd have more like 1.8 seconds since you'd need to hit them at least 4 times.

Of course, that disadvantage was quickly replaced with it not doing as much damage as the revolver ever due to a slight buff to revolver damage making Ambassador's minicrits on headshot completely worthless.

It's not a mini-crit, it's a full crit.  102 damage in one burst from long range is not worthless.  It's also better DPS-wise as long as you can hit headshots fairly often.

I find it much, much easier to hit headshots without scoping - the scope requires you to either know where your opponent is going to be in advance or stay in a slow and vulnerable state while scope-aiming.  Without the scope it's just a trickier normal shot.

[Putnam]

It was a mini-crit at some point. I was referring to that point.

[Leafsnail]

I guess, but it was changed to full-crits 5 days after its introduction.

[EnigmaticHat]

Realistically you're blindsiding them (due to the fact that you are a spy and they are a sniper, you should not be expecting to beat a sniper at their own game) and unless they can turn around and score a headshot in under 0.7 seconds (the time it takes for you to kill them with your followup bodyshot) their fire-rate and damage output is irrelevant.

Note that if you tried to do the same thing with the stock revolver they'd have more like 1.8 seconds since you'd need to hit them at least 4 times.

Of course, that disadvantage was quickly replaced with it not doing as much damage as the revolver ever due to a slight buff to revolver damage making Ambassador's minicrits on headshot completely worthless.

It's not a mini-crit, it's a full crit.  102 damage in one burst from long range is not worthless.  It's also better DPS-wise as long as you can hit headshots fairly often.

I find it much, much easier to hit headshots without scoping - the scope requires you to either know where your opponent is going to be in advance or stay in a slow and vulnerable state while scope-aiming.  Without the scope it's just a trickier normal shot.

Spoiler: Wall of TF2 strategy discussion (click to show/hide)

Yeah, but a spy's job is NOT to kill snipers.  If a sniper kills a soldier, and then you kill that sniper, the sniper did a better job than you did.  By a lot.  Remember, a spy doesn't tank or deny territory as other classes do.  To be worth their slot, they either need to go for high value targets, or kill enemies faster than they can return to the fight. In most maps that's a sniper kill every 10-20 seconds, just to break even (aka waste a team slot on both teams).  Scouts need to be killed even faster to break even, heavies much less frequently.  The only classes this rule doesn't apply to are engies and medics; you could do nothing but wipe an engi nest or kill a medic every 40-60 seconds, and you'd still be the star of your team.  Also remember that snipers don't need to walk as far as you do to contribute, so if you kill a sniper and then immediately die, they're still more valuable than you just for getting you killed.

At mid range the headshot + bodyshot combo does an average of something like 140.  Obviously that combo won't work on most engineers, and is difficult to land on scouts.  Spies, while vulnerable to the combo, are also going to be difficult to catch with it given the ambush nature of the strategy and the fact that you're both only going to want to show yourself in enemy territory. All other classes besides sniper have >140 health.  So even in an optimal case where you are behind the enemy, or in front of a sniper who missed his first shot, you're STILL at your best against snipers.  Now yeah when used against weakened classes the amby is good, but then the logic of "why not just play scout" if you're going to run behind the enemy and shoot them in the back.  Plus revolver is about as good as amby for that.

Each sniper on the enemy team presents both area denial and a serious threat to demos, soldiers, heavies, and medics, which are the core of any competent team.  You have neither of those advantages with the amby.  The amby is also worse than the stock revolver (assuming non-crazy aim) when used in a situation where you are discovered and retreating.  Its also worse (to the tune of a little over 35% less damage) for the rarely used but still effective strategy of shooting sapped buildings.  Its main advantage is when used offensively, when you have time to line up shots while disguised.  So I say again, why not just play sniper?

Now, yes, with two consecutive headshots the numbers look a lot better, with you killing every non-heavy class.  However, if you're at the skill level to do that consistently AND also be good enough with spy skills to outperform yourself as sniper, its fair to say that the enemy team should be good enough to overheal.  If not, the skill difference is enough you'd kill them with anything.  And with overhealing the numbers are almost exactly the same, with the exception that medics need to have been overhealed recently or they'll die.

Not arguing that if you have amazing aim, the choice between amby and other revolvers isn't mostly obvious, but at the pubstar level yeah, why not just play sniper if you're equipping amby?

[miauw62]

People that are good with the amby will usually use it when things go bad and they need to kill somebody and then GTFO.

On another subject, I have accidentally done a social experiment on cp_steel.
I was playing gunslinger engie, as usual, and placed a teleporter next to the spawn, as usual.
However, while my team was attacking A and not doing a very good job of it, I went all the way around and built a teleporter exit behind the doors that open when you capture A.
This caused my entire team to use the teleporter and abandon A altogheter, and then shifted the focus of combat to that area. We lost very badly, obviously. And I couldn't stop laughing, because I had just actively caused my team to lose really, really badly.