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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3667052 times)

Playbahnosh

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8805 on: December 17, 2009, 06:14:00 pm »

I wonder when diseases and epidemics will be implemented. Quarantines, medical labs, vaccination. I think it could be a bloat for the healthcare arc.

A virus that is carried by rodent and animals could murderize the whole fortress in a single day. Then, there will be a legitimate reason to kill all animals. Also, old-school medieval warfare: use the catapult to hurl diseased animals at the attackers during a siege. Or start a whole pandemic that kills everything in the world. Ahem, I'm getting ahead of myself...
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alfie275

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8806 on: December 17, 2009, 06:28:47 pm »

Yeah, I was basically suggesting that it actually be multiple buildings automagically placed.
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KillerClowns

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8807 on: December 17, 2009, 06:32:32 pm »

Let's not forget, rope ladders will have to interact with pathfinding, amount of rope required, flammability, what can/cannot use them...
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Quatch

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8808 on: December 17, 2009, 06:37:09 pm »

Can anyone think of a way to anthropomorphize nothingness?  I'm having a pretty hard time here.

Religion does a good job at it.

Also, I'm thinking I'm going to have to pump so many Z levels into my new fort down, that there isn't going to be room to go up at all. Sounds so fascinating down there.

Yeah, I was basically suggesting that it actually be multiple buildings automagically placed.
I think that is the shortcut sol'n toady is intending?
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8809 on: December 17, 2009, 07:34:55 pm »

So my "human criteria" are these:
  • manual dexterity
  • intra-community communication
  • inter-community communication
  • the ability to abstract reality from experience
  • problem solving

There are other aspects of "human" that I cannot think of at the moment, but I would say these are really the prime human traits. Note also that humans are by no means the pinnacle of these criteria, just the best examples so far.
So don't call them human traits. Call them traits of persons. After all, not all humans possess these characteristics..

Quote
However, turning animals into animal men also requires some changes which are more physical than these. Erect posture, exaggerated facial features for communication (notice how our eyes indicate where we are looking), opposable thumbs on forelimbs, reduced muscle mass but increased brain mass, reduced (or stylised) fur/scales/whatever on the face and head (e.g. beards and hair as opposed to a full facial covering), and body decoration - clothes, tattoos and jewelry. That should just about turn any creature with eyes into an animal man, though aquatic creatures are definitely harder.
Erect posture and opposable thumbs are required for 'manual dexterity'. A culture can easily use non-facial gestures and postures for nonverbal communiation. Reduced muscle mass is not required at all. I don't see any reason to be baldfaced, again- though I suppose this is in the "human" direction.
Well if we're talking human features enhanced you run into the issue of which features are human? Until Jane Goodall's work we thought war was specifically human but now about all we've got is art.

Many creatures create things for appreciation of others/to attract mates. Now, before you say "that's not why we do art" consider rock musicians.
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InsanityPrelude

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8810 on: December 17, 2009, 07:50:19 pm »

The new version being out (almost) in time for Christmas would be awesome, even without rope ladders. :)

Although I still wonder how our computers'll handle the extra z-levels (if I understood that right) and features and body parts.
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Nivim

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8811 on: December 17, 2009, 07:51:36 pm »

 I found the conversation about anthropomorphism rather fun, but you really can't treat evolution like that (already been said, twice). All an anthropomorphism function needs is to add/merge the traits Innominate listed (a slightly more specific and needs to include Religion though).

Someone already started a thread in relation to this.

I think most of them may be fictional or drawn from stuff like DnD because there aren't many true cave critters that aren't arthropods. Amphibians are already well represented in DF for subterranean, although a couple more wouldn't hurt.
Amphipods not exciting enough for you, eh? On another note, the slimes of D&D aren't as much of a stretch as you might think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snottite
That reminds of a time when the bath drain in the basement bathroom closed while it was draining. We learned of this a week later, and returned to find a bit of algae looking stuff growing in it. When I reached in to open the drain, I was met with a burning sensation, then a burning pain. Soap helped the hand, and bleach was used to clean the tub.

 Oh, and some totally random things;

"001090 □ [weather] if rain lasts too long, ponds can overflow and flood the map"
 Why shouldn't there be flooding from excessive rain? It happens in real life. Buildings can be washed away and rivers overflow their banks.

"000802 □ [creatures] snakemen can get through fortifications"
 Wouldn't they be thin/contorting enough do that? Along with a few other creatures.

"000034 □ [dwarf mode][combat]   sometimes attack an enemy while you're on a staircase above it can lead to you going down multiple floors when you charge"

 I can imagine just this happening with a single-direction landing spiral staircase. Where the momentum of the attack continues to push both stumbling parties down quite far. Why not just make it so both are bruised up and on the ground when this happens? To represent falling down stairs?
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8812 on: December 17, 2009, 07:55:00 pm »

"001090 □ [weather] if rain lasts too long, ponds can overflow and flood the map"
 Why shouldn't there be flooding from excessive rain? It happens in real life. Buildings can be washed away and rivers overflow their banks.

Flooding is indeed reasonable, and there's a dev item for it:

# Bloat286, RAIN POOLING, (Future): Rain should have a chance to collect in certain areas.

I think it was just unintended behavior for it to happen that way with pools.
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Mokurai

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8813 on: December 17, 2009, 08:18:50 pm »

That' okay if you visualize the phase-space as a sphere, I guess.

If, however, one visualizes it as an n-dimensional space, the function becomes simpler:


I will hazard the conjecture that the space in question is non-Euclidean and not of uniform dimension, no matter how you think of parameterizing it. I also assume that DNA is completely irrelevant to this discussion. ^_^

But now that we have gotten this far, why stop at only two components (man/animal). Why not animal/animal to any degree of complexity? The traditional snake/lion/goat chimera, for example, the lion/human/scorpion manticore, or the human/lion/bird sphinx.  More at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythological_hybrids
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Playbahnosh

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8814 on: December 17, 2009, 08:29:24 pm »

So don't call them human traits. Call them traits of persons. After all, not all humans possess these characteristics..

Erect posture and opposable thumbs are required for 'manual dexterity'. A culture can easily use non-facial gestures and postures for nonverbal communiation. Reduced muscle mass is not required at all. I don't see any reason to be baldfaced, again- though I suppose this is in the "human" direction.

It has a name, creatures that are not human but resemble humans are called "humanoids". Bipedal movement, erect posture, manual dexterity, these some of the basic traits of humanoids. They might not even have opposable thumbs or reduced body hair (wookies are humanoids too), but resemble us in other ways.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8815 on: December 17, 2009, 08:39:29 pm »

Ah, there's the word I was looking for. (generic) Chimeras are not hybrids...

Mermen, centaurs, harpies(/sirens), satyrs, sphinxes, and nagas are usually chimeric in appearance.
Minotaurs can go either way.

PPE@Playbahnosh: Well...I dislike anthropocentrism. Calling the traits by species name reinforces the notion that humans are the sole holders of these traits, I feel- a bad direction to take.
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Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8816 on: December 17, 2009, 08:39:29 pm »

This came up a few pages ago; someone said probably not, but didn't seem 100% certain.


If a weapon is made out of a contact-poison material, will it poison struck opponents?
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PermanentInk

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8817 on: December 17, 2009, 08:43:12 pm »

So my "human criteria" are these:
  • manual dexterity
  • intra-community communication
  • inter-community communication
  • the ability to abstract reality from experience
  • problem solving

There are other aspects of "human" that I cannot think of at the moment, but I would say these are really the prime human traits. Note also that humans are by no means the pinnacle of these criteria, just the best examples so far.
So don't call them human traits. Call them traits of persons. After all, not all humans possess these characteristics..

Reminds me of a notion Tom Robbins puts forward in his novel Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates.  He refers to essential traits of humanity such at these (his list is Humor, Imagination, Eroticism, Spirituality, Rebelliousness, and Aesthetics), and submits that only a small subset of humanity can really claim to exhibit all these traits in proper fashion, and therefore only this minority are really "human."  He borrows the term "missing link" to refer to everyone else.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8818 on: December 17, 2009, 08:49:45 pm »

GUYS

Alright, look.  The whole mathematical function of humanoid monster forms thing?  That was kind of entertaining.  Really it was.  But this?  This crap?  Fifty-ish posts of just arguing about the ontological definition of evolution?  This is way over the line.  You've all taken what was a tangiental discussion about Dwarf Fortress into something else entirely that is rapidly flying out of control from a hilarious bit of nerd joking to something bordering on a flamewar.  A flamewar about evolution, among the most fiery of all topics.

I already to spent a full minute scrolling over Shoku's Quote-Rebuttal of Doom.  Stop.  All of you, stop this now.
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atomfullerene

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #8819 on: December 17, 2009, 08:50:29 pm »

Just to be clear, erect posture and opposeable  thumbs, while certainly human or humanoid traits, are NOT required for manual dexterity.  In particular, erect posture is a weird and unusual trait which I would expect few creatures needing to grasp things to wind up using.  Any critter with more than four legs or a decent sized tail would probably adopt a more balanced, horizontal posture (crab, therapod dinosaur, and octopus forms all have grasping potential and are far more common than humanoid).  And, because this is a pet peeve of mine, here's a link to tvtropes Starfish Aliens.  Hope you didn't need that hour or two of your life...

/heh, I'm just being snarky here...and I'm aware you were mostly talking in the context of humanoid things where the point has more validity

Although one thing I really do despise is the concept that some people have a greater set of some suite of mental attributes and are therefore somehow more worthy of being considered "human"

--edit
pre-empted by Aquizzar, who wants to spoil the fun.  Although I guess his point is well made...this is so off topic it's not even in the right forum section
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 08:53:38 pm by atomfullerene »
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