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[Cavalcadeofcats]

I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking at.

Don't worry, that's just Foa.

Looks classy, whatever it is.

Very watery.

[LegoLord]

The only real solution would be tunnelers and siege engines, insofar as historical precedent goes. And maybe giant wooden horses. Perhaps making stone more difficult to acquire.

Tunnelers are NOT necessary, there have been plenty of other good suggestions for solutions to the siege problem.

[Foa]

I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking at.

Don't worry, that's just Foa.

An overcomplicated OR Gate, for when someone wants to leaves/enter.

Anyways, to simplify it, when you conceal your fort, some radicals try to escape, in which I make a system that both feed them lava, but whoever wants to enter, but there is a delay problem, so I add in and extra system that guarantees entrapment ( Thank you anti-break-ware ) , and/or lava.

[Yaddy1]

Tunnellers ARE necessecary!

And what we need is something that mandates things that's harder to get rid of than nobles.

[LegoLord]

Tunnellers ARE necessecary!

And what we need is something that mandates things that's harder to get rid of than nobles.

Siege towers, bridge builders, construction destroyers.
All perform the same basic function as tunneling, but are more efficient, more commonly used in real history, and are, frankly, faster.  Tunneling is therefore unnecessary.  Not that it can't eventually be added, but it should be pretty low priority, for adding in and for AI decision making.

On topic:  Perhaps a great goblin army is passing, armed with incredible gear, at least on the squad leaders.  Perhaps one of them even has an artifact.  However, they are not attacking you.  They are merely passing through, on the way to assault a weaker, yet still important, fort.  You can let them pass and weaken your nation while letting your strength build, or you can risk weakening your own fort to protect that other jewel of a starting fort and get some cool gear.

[Warlord255]

Tunnellers ARE necessecary!

And what we need is something that mandates things that's harder to get rid of than nobles.

Siege towers, bridge builders, construction destroyers.
All perform the same basic function as tunneling, but are more efficient, more commonly used in real history, and are, frankly, faster.  Tunneling is therefore unnecessary.  Not that it can't eventually be added, but it should be pretty low priority, for adding in and for AI decision making.

On topic:  Perhaps a great goblin army is passing, armed with incredible gear, at least on the squad leaders.  Perhaps one of them even has an artifact.  However, they are not attacking you.  They are merely passing through, on the way to assault a weaker, yet still important, fort.  You can let them pass and weaken your nation while letting your strength build, or you can risk weakening your own fort to protect that other jewel of a starting fort and get some cool gear.

You might encounter some problems with smaller embark areas (try avoiding a passing goblin siege in a 3x3) but this would be worth considering.

[Tormy]

Tunnellers ARE necessecary!

And what we need is something that mandates things that's harder to get rid of than nobles.

Siege towers, bridge builders, construction destroyers.
All perform the same basic function as tunneling, but are more efficient, more commonly used in real history, and are, frankly, faster.  Tunneling is therefore unnecessary.  Not that it can't eventually be added, but it should be pretty low priority, for adding in and for AI decision making.

Erm, I am wondering that how could the AI get into your fortress without tunneling, if you have crossbowdwarves @ perfectly safe positions [you know what I mean, don't you?] and 150 traps all around the entrance. Basically it's way too easy to defend the fortress above ground.

[Andir]

Tunnellers ARE necessecary!

And what we need is something that mandates things that's harder to get rid of than nobles.

Siege towers, bridge builders, construction destroyers.
All perform the same basic function as tunneling, but are more efficient, more commonly used in real history, and are, frankly, faster.  Tunneling is therefore unnecessary.  Not that it can't eventually be added, but it should be pretty low priority, for adding in and for AI decision making.

On topic:  Perhaps a great goblin army is passing, armed with incredible gear, at least on the squad leaders.  Perhaps one of them even has an artifact.  However, they are not attacking you.  They are merely passing through, on the way to assault a weaker, yet still important, fort.  You can let them pass and weaken your nation while letting your strength build, or you can risk weakening your own fort to protect that other jewel of a starting fort and get some cool gear.

You might encounter some problems with smaller embark areas (try avoiding a passing goblin siege in a 3x3) but this would be worth considering.

I just keep thinking how easy that would be to bring to you.  Just build 4 walls from your fort out to the corners of the map.  The Party would have to come near your fort to get from any wall to another...  You could set up a series of overpass/underpass paths and bridges to lock them into a lava pit of death for an easy claim.  The hard part would be trying to prevent them from walking around your wall and keeping your fort path the shortest.  Another way would be to station some crossbow dwarfs in towers at the end of these walls.

[Tormy]

LegoLord just cannot realize that what is the situation. You build walls+moats outside of the fortress. Even if the enemy will bring 30 bridge builders and 30 construction destroyers with themselves, the crossbowdwarves + ballistas [when they will be useful in the future] will easily massacre them while they are doing their job. [IE: destroying walls + constructing bridges]...and I am not even mentioned the traps. 

[LegoLord]

Tunnellers ARE necessecary!

And what we need is something that mandates things that's harder to get rid of than nobles.

Siege towers, bridge builders, construction destroyers.
All perform the same basic function as tunneling, but are more efficient, more commonly used in real history, and are, frankly, faster.  Tunneling is therefore unnecessary.  Not that it can't eventually be added, but it should be pretty low priority, for adding in and for AI decision making.

Erm, I am wondering that how could the AI get into your fortress without tunneling, if you have crossbowdwarves @ perfectly safe positions [you know what I mean, don't you?] and 150 traps all around the entrance. Basically it's way too easy to defend the fortress above ground.

Goblin mechanics, xbow dwarves can't be everywhere, & goblins have them too.

[TrombonistAndrew]

Tunnellers ARE necessecary!

And what we need is something that mandates things that's harder to get rid of than nobles.

If you want to make it desirable to have forts without bottlenecks, you don't necesarily need more monsters with gadgets; you need the need for ventilation.

You make a huge underground fort, and hit a gas pocket and the only place for the gas to go is your one-tile-wide entrance corridor . . . you're screwed. Make it open to the air, and no problem.

[StrayCat]

Combat Engineers. Enemy Masons, mechanics, siege operators/engineers, and miners that deconstruct your walls, build floors over your channels, funnel a river into your pad, build stealthed traps all over the place, fire ballistae down your trade Depot Entrance, catapults that break through walls at your defenses, undermine and collapse sections of your fortress to fuck your shit up.

That about sums it up, really. If you want bare bones, enemy masons should be enough. They'll recycle the walls they tear down for building over the channels.

[LegoLord]

Combat Engineers. Enemy Masons, mechanics, siege operators/engineers, and miners that deconstruct your walls, build floors over your channels, funnel a river into your pad, build stealthed traps all over the place, fire ballistae down your trade Depot Entrance, catapults that break through walls at your defenses, undermine and collapse sections of your fortress to fuck your shit up.

See, this is the problem with tunneling:  It wrecks the fort.  Hence why everything else you mentioned has fairly little opposition.  Maybe people would like something that works like tunneling, but doesn't wreck the whole thing, you think?  Awhile back I did make a suggestion on how that would work (different thread) but it went unnoticed.  A lot of the opposition for tunneling comes from the fact that the only system for it that people ever suggest would just create frustration for the player, which is not what games are for.  It should be a challenge, not some bundle of fake difficulty that you can't do anything to fix or prevent. 

Picture it:
A sapper digs into your food stockpile and sets of your booze, and you had no way to see it coming! 

Does that honestly sound fun?

[nordo]

If gobbos know how to dig, they'll just dig under the fort and collapse it.  Either that or they'll dig into the demons while trying to get underneath your fort.  One way or another, their digging will have to be restricted.  I suppose they could only know how to dig straight into the fort, which would force the player to make traps all over the fort, and the create perimeter tunnels with patrol dwarfs keeping an eye out for intruders.  Sounds fun.  I don't know how the gobbos will ever have the ai they need to pull off an effective surface siege, even if they do get machines and shields and know how to build bridges.  Just raise the bridge and ballista the dorks, like usual.

[Warlord255]

Tunnellers ARE necessecary!

And what we need is something that mandates things that's harder to get rid of than nobles.

If you want to make it desirable to have forts without bottlenecks, you don't necesarily need more monsters with gadgets; you need the need for ventilation.

You make a huge underground fort, and hit a gas pocket and the only place for the gas to go is your one-tile-wide entrance corridor . . . you're screwed. Make it open to the air, and no problem.

Some other, subtler applications for ventilation;

Wood/charcoal furnaces emit smoke
Non-dispersing miasma
Air quality?