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[mainiac]

It should be noted that the ban on fighting on byzantium is hard coded directly into the game.  It's not that you are forbidden from fighting before someone declares themselves emperor, you are completely unable to launch attacks.

As far as excommunication goes, all I can say is that I've only made a couple weak attempts to get computer players excommunicated in single player games.  So I can tell you that offers of a couple thousand firebirds aren't enough but maybe larger sums will do the trick.  The anecdotal evidence seems to support that the cpu responds well to huge sums of money.  For instance the Guild doesn't normally accept any deal with players (even cash for free!).  But I read somewhere that someone was able to make the Guild accept a peace treaty for several tens of thousands of firebirds.

Proscribed technologies are proscribed forever.  The developers of nova weren't fans of this, so they set the churches dislike of all technologies to either be 10 (proscribed at the start) or 0 (never proscribed), meaning technologies don't get proscribed over the course of the game.

[Mlittle]

Turn done and save is sent.

[mainiac]

I find this very educational, never again will I dismiss Israeli & Palestinian conflict with: "they should just talk about it".

Well, I think there's a crucial difference between Israel/Palestine and our repeated tensions.  Regarding Isreal/Palestine, both sides only believe peace can only come after the other side gives up.  They escalate violence because they think violence is the only thing that will demonstrate their resolve in the face of violence.
<pause for irony>

You and I both believe that peace is possible (as near as I can tell).  We just disagree on the terms that will make that peace likely.  I see peace as dependent on successful negotiation, i.e. the arms restrictions and spheres of influences proposal to slow the march to war or the garrison and payments proposal to make war prohibitively dangerous.  What you see as leading to peace eludes me, I must confess.  So far as I can tell you only want peace when it involves absolutely no sacrifice on your own behalf.  But at least you do actually want peace.

IMHO there is some silver bullet that will lead to peace between us.  Even if you don't grow more open to negotiation, eventually, I can find a proposal that's a net gain for you and allays my fears.  The only problem is that I don't know what that silver bullet is and you don't care.  Both sides are willing to negotiate for peace, so it's possible with the right agreement.

Israel and Palestine... well, there have been volumes written about what peace between those two sides would require.  And majorities in both communities do not wish to accept such requirements.

[Il Palazzo]

I was actually reffering more to the fact that both sides feel morally justified to act the way they're acting, and they seem completely unable to just skip the subject and look for some solution.

[mainiac]

Well that's pretty much every war.

[Il Palazzo]

Well, you've got a point. Perhaps it's just that the I/P one is so well covered by the media. We just seem know this war much more intimately and thoughly than e.g.the one in Afghanistan.

[Servant Corps]

I find this very educational, never again will I dismiss Israeli & Palestinian conflict with: "they should just talk about it".

Well, I think there's a crucial difference between Israel/Palestine and our repeated tensions.  Regarding Isreal/Palestine, both sides only believe peace can only come after the other side gives up.  They escalate violence because they think violence is the only thing that will demonstrate their resolve in the face of violence.
<pause for irony>

You and I both believe that peace is possible (as near as I can tell).  We just disagree on the terms that will make that peace likely.  I see peace as dependent on successful negotiation, i.e. the arms restrictions and spheres of influences proposal to slow the march to war or the garrison and payments proposal to make war prohibitively dangerous.  What you see as leading to peace eludes me, I must confess.  So far as I can tell you only want peace when it involves absolutely no sacrifice on your own behalf.  But at least you do actually want peace.

IMHO there is some silver bullet that will lead to peace between us.  Even if you don't grow more open to negotiation, eventually, I can find a proposal that's a net gain for you and allays my fears.  The only problem is that I don't know what that silver bullet is and you don't care.  Both sides are willing to negotiate for peace, so it's possible with the right agreement.

Israel and Palestine... well, there have been volumes written about what peace between those two sides would require.  And majorities in both communities do not wish to accept such requirements.

Also, the Israel/Palestine conflict is so important due to its very symbolic location as part of the Islamic, Chrisitan, and Jewish world. The whole belief of Zionism is to have a homeland for the Jews, and where else to live in such a homeland rather than in a sacred place of Judaism? There is also the nationalistic element in there too: The Palestine question, before the 1980's, could also be seen as a nationalistic movement, to protect their own homeland rather than being forced off the land they always have lived on...

The IP conflict is so unlike this conflict, where you two imperialistic families guys apperantly are squabbling over a random planet, while the average peasents shurg and give their taxes to the winner.

[JoshuaFH]

I finally figured out how to get the game you guys are playing going on my computer, I think, thanks for the help Palazzo. I was completely taken by surprise at the chosen background music.

Frankly, it seems like a game on an epic scale, but also pretty complicated. I'll have to delve into some sort of written guide to wrap my mind around it. If another player just so happens to drop out, or another round is began, I may be open to play.

[Il Palazzo]

wait, you've got music?

[JoshuaFH]

Yeah, there's "Jenny on the block" and some other hip-hop style songs that play.

[Boksi]

Dude, I think it's just playing the songs from the CD in your PC.

[JoshuaFH]

What... DAMN YOU 90's KARAOKE COMPILATION CD!

[Servant Corps]

Don't be fooled by the planets that I got
I'm still, I'm still Jenny from the Church's block
(currently on sale for 50,000 Firebirds)
Used to have a little now I have a lot of followers
No matter where I go I know where I came from
(From the Pancreator)

[mainiac]

while the average peasents shurg and give their taxes to the winner.

^^ I am Chi Koo of the august and pious Li Halan and I endorse this message .

The IP conflict is so unlike this conflict, where you two imperialistic families guys apperantly are squabbling over a random planet,

It stopped being about one planet a while ago.  Originally it was about Criticorum, but Il Palazzo never put a soldier on that planet.  Boski put an impressive army on Criticorum, but Il Palazzo sent his forces to the Li Halan home world of Kish.  Boski and I didn't weren't particularly aggressive towards each other, so the bulk of the fighting took place on or above Kish.

The second war was prompted by a dispute over Malignatius.  The respective fleets went head to head above that world and there was an intermediate campaign for control of the surface.  After that, Li Halan parked a fleet above the al-Malik home world of Istakhr and started launching raids on the surface.

So while the whole thing started in a dispute over Criticorum, Criticorum long since stopped being important to the war.  This map here from a game report on the nova website shows the location of the planets I mentioned.

Don't be fooled by the planets that I got
I'm still, I'm still Jenny from the Church's block
(currently on sale for 50,000 Firebirds)
Used to have a little now I have a lot of followers
No matter where I go I know where I came from
(From the Pancreator)

Huh?

[Servant Corps]

I moidifed the refrain of "Jenny on the Block" to make it more PanCreator-friendly.