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Author Topic: Evolution and Genetics  (Read 3004 times)

Granite26

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2008, 10:48:43 am »

Some people have a psuedo-scientific belief about blood types dictating personality.  It's a buncha hooey.  The Japanese are particularly fond of that bit of hooey.

One of the things about fantasy games is that it is perfectly acceptable to make not real (myths or urban legends) stuff real in that world.

It'd be cool if certain creatures had Lamarkian evolution (a dwarf with a finger bit off passes on its four-fingeredness to its children.

Like this... it would be wild... (and we'd end up with limbless species in no time!)

winner

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2008, 03:21:14 am »

please no lamark, for the same reason it was discredited in real life, I don't want kids running around fainting from their spinal injuries and missing limbs.
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Patarak

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2008, 05:43:09 am »

It'd be cool if certain creatures had Lamarkian evolution (a dwarf with a finger bit off passes on its four-fingeredness to its children.

Yeah, that'll go off real well.

A population where half of them are limbless and eyeless.
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IndonesiaWarMinister

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2008, 08:45:19 am »

It'd be cool if certain creatures had Lamarkian evolution (a dwarf with a finger bit off passes on its four-fingeredness to its children.

Yeah, that'll go off real well.

A population where half of them are limbless and eyeless.

Of course not! The mutated shall not be in *normal* society per se.

They must be hunted by the general society (i.e. Communists), nobles (because the majority didn't care that limbless dwarves becoming the noble's personal slave), mages/academian (to perform experiment to them) etc.

After all, it's evil to be an unhelping person or a person who strikes fear to others in a society.
However, if the mutation is subtle (wrong word? :P) enough, he/she may hide it and become *normal*.

Well, it's all RNG work anyway.
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Granite26

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2008, 10:07:57 am »

well, in theory, the heavily injured shouldn't (be able to) breed...

varkarrus

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2008, 11:51:45 am »

Urist McAfrican has been unhappy lately. He has been oppressed by White Supremacists lately. He has been comforted by his Bling lately.
 
Urist McRacist has been happy lately. He yelled at a Black dwarf and felt better afterwards.
 
 
 
No. I do not want this. Down with this thread!
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jaked122

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2008, 12:26:46 pm »

I'd love this, it would add all forms of things,

Prof. Xavier has discovered that he can lift things with his mind,
he feels bad from being hunted by the other dwarfs due to this.

but then again, this is too close to magic...

Pickerel

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2008, 01:24:48 pm »

I would call the blood type thing trivial as well, but not the concept of using genetics in-game.  You call it trivial, but one of the things I am most impressed with that Toady does is how the worlds become mathematical models of populations, civilizations, ect.  As such, Genetic Algorithms themselves could indeed add an interesting aspect to the game.  Genetic algorithms are nearly by definition a generator that generates some factors starting from a seed (so for our purposes, random), plus selective factors on those traits.
It relies on having randomized ranges.  So if a shark has initial size 10+-2, it could be from 8-12.  And some parameter is needed for selection.  Lets say that we set it, for sharks, to have increased feeding need based on size, and has whatever tag that was where it attacks anything smaller then it.  So there's two ways it could play out.  1. those with increased need to feed would need to attack more.  On the one hand that is putting it in danger more, but on the other hand the increased size makes it better able to deal with it.  So if it is up against size 9 things that usually kill sharks without effort, then being small might be good so that it does not attack those things, while being size 12 might increase success.  So now, lets say we run this for a while.
Most size 10s die, size 9's and 8's don't attack those things but go a little hungry, size 11's and 12's do and manage to pick off a few and feed.  So the size parameter of living sharks is now used to generate the next generation.  Size 12's still have the +-2, so they are now size 10-14, and the 8's have 6-10.
Now, those of size 14 whoop arse of their normally mortal enemy, feed a good bit, and reproduce.  Size 6's attack only smaller animals by the water and survive to reproduce.  Even if in-game the smalls 'mate' with the larges, this system allows the population to develope into two subpopulations with various traits.  We've selected for small and large variants based on a single natural food/enemy...
This could be a way, also, of making the PLAYER or the DWARVES THEY ARE PLAYING be the selective factor.  I once played a game where randomized 3-D triangles attacked you.  They had random speed, shooting ranges, basically random 'behaviors'.  Each level used the ones that did the most damage to you as the seeds for the next level's enemies.  So it adapted to your style of play.  If I am the sort to stand around and shoot far away, then thoser that shoot from afar will do more damage then those thatdart forward to attack and get killed.  If I am the type to go in close and shoot wildly, those that shoot from afar are less advantageous because they won't often hit me, so those that rush forward are best.  After the third level, I had all triangles that rushed forward, and at that point I was done for.  Likewise, there was one time I decided to play the other way, and I selected for the far-rangers.  I ended up with so many shooting from afar that I couldn't dodge them all anymore, and again died repeatedly.  So I selected for two separate tendencies both of which were successful against me.  In this way, the player can be the selective factor.
So if you tend to hole up and shoot through fortifications, goblins with A. the trait of shooting more from afar up at your dwarves behind the fortifications and B. higher marksgoblin skill, will do more damage.  If that is the factor used to generate the goblins in the next wave, there will be a steadily increasing selection toward long-ranged high-skill marksgoblins.  If, however, you are the sort to, for example, set up walls and catch goblins by surprise with hordes of well-armored, well-armed dwarves, then you will be selecting for well-armored, well-armed goblins. 
Depending on how wide the range of a randomized trait, and how much that trait matters for doing damage, the game could quickly adapt to a particular mode of play, and possibly add a level of difficulty to the game.
So do not discount the idea of genetic algorithms as a wonderful mathematical model, to possibly someday make their appearance in DF.
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G-Flex

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2008, 03:21:56 pm »

The interesting thing about evolution is that it's the result of natural processes. You don't need to "model" it explicitly.

If creatures in DF have certain traits which are inheritable, said traits can influence the creature's chance of breeding/surviving, and there's some slight randomness ("mutation") in inheriting traits, then evolution will necessarily occur, although not necessarily very quickly.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2008, 03:27:04 pm »

^^^ And there will be inherited traits in the next version, probably with some degree of randomness, although it isn't clear yet if that just means appearance or attributes like strength as well.  Anyway, as long as selection pressures are present, yeah, you'll see evolution.  Strength has obvious selection pressures, appearance will require more nuanced stuff like civ aesthetics or personal preferences (if you bring up natural vs. unnatural selection I will get so mad).
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Granite26

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2008, 10:40:14 am »

I like this, especially in the civ model (Plump Helmets getting more and more useful over time?)

The down side is that it might be a bit much...

Kholint

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2008, 09:05:25 pm »

Question: Why would blood type ever matter for a game based on medieval Europe?

I'm sorry- how is dwarf fortress in any way based on "medieval Europe"?

As a european myself, I think I can say that if the way our continent used to be even *vaguely* resembled the average DF world, well- we'd be sort of screwed.
All our major cities would be a thousand years old, full of grim and imposing structures, linked by giant straight roads that were built by an ancient civilisation (that we were conquered by then gradually outpopulated). All our historical, royal families would be inbred and hated by the general public- and we'd occasionally find ancient, sealed off caves with bizarre, primitive engravings lining the walls. Worst of all, throughout the land there'd be pockets of strange, ecologically friendly hippies living in harmony and social freedom. Oh, wait.
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G-Flex

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2008, 09:08:58 pm »

The technology and culture represented is very explicitly based on medieval Europe. In fact, Toady has stated that the level of tech he's going for is 1400's European, and all the folklore and culture and... well, basically everything, is European, in typical fantasy sense.

So yes, it's not Europe in the ways you just described, but you're missing the point that the culture and technology represented are meant to resemble medieval Europe and folklore derived from it.

Also, you can't know about blood type unless you have pretty damn advanced technology by the standards represented in the DF world. EXTREMELY advanced. In other words, they don't damn have it.


Edit: Egg's on my face. I responded before thinking and noticing the sarcasm, despite how obvious it was. That's what I get for responding to something *while* I read it.
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madrain

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Re: Evolution and Genetics
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2008, 10:41:36 pm »

Question: Why would blood type ever matter for a game based on medieval Europe?
Oh, wait.
I laughed.
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