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[Neonivek]

What anime? That ZnT you guys are arguing about? I've literally never seen it before 'nor even heard of it before this point.

It probably would have been a better idea to show your friend the scene in the LN rather than the anime one, since Frumple was speaking specifically about how it was worded and stuff.

After the scene from the anime >_> I think I'll give him a break.

I actually know a bit about abuse and the patterns of abuse (I took a class in it)... So beyond his reaction I know how many notes anime scene hit (Possessive, punishing someone for fighting back, debasing the person, finding fault in someone for simply being nice to someone else, being abusive due to esteem issues unrelated to the event)

give me a day.

(Though I did get another abuse victim who apperantly... also didn't find it funny, found it terrible, and gave it a 5 in terms of realism towards all abuse and a 7 as accurate as a scene of actual abuse)

[UXLZ]

Hmm, I was more so saying 'instead of,' since now is view of the scene is likely clouded by the anime's interpretation. (In the LN it might be almost-but-not-quite abuse, but if you've already seen the anime and thought of it as abuse it may tip the scales.)

Still, I'll say that the scene that's been linked in the Youtube clips isn't funny or sexy/whatever, at least to me. It feels a bit like a badly executed 'B-BAKA!!' (for lack of a better term) moment. Very badly executed, really.

[Neonivek]

Which is par for the course in the anime.

It is why in the second season she only blows him up with spells AND he actively seeks out her annoyance... since at that point even they kind of realized it wasn't pleasant.

[Frumple]

It probably would have been a better idea to show your friend the scene in the LN rather than the anime one, since Frumple was speaking specifically about how it was worded and stuff.

Mm. Yeah, more or less. My primary complaint, really, would be drawing direct parallels to torture. As I've noted, I've ran into outright torture in fiction significantly more than I would like to, and ZnT's prose (even the animated stuff, for that matter) does not mimic it, or particularly lean towards that. It does have shades of your average dysfunctional romance relationship (i.e. abusive as goddamn), but it doesn't nearly go that far, and is on the net (especially on the net, as the frequency is somewhat muted for much of the series) what I'd call fairly normal for the genre. If you want to see abnormal, you look to something like Domina no Do. Or probably don't.

To the more general discussion, don't mistake things -- most everything that involves a tsundere character displays characteristic abuse patterns (it's really hard to say they're actually in full out abusive relationships, though, especially in context of the shows themselves*), and anything involving that and slapstick (especially clumsily written slapstick) is going to push buttons. A lot of romcom slapstick in general does, really. Not stuff I'd recommend to an actual abuse victim. Fiction in general with romance involved is a freaking minefield when it comes to stuff like that.

*ZnT's actually a pretty good example of that, really. Insecurities, violence, and saito being a clumsily written harem protag aside, the main pair is written in context as more or less getting along pretty well as things progress (though that progression is made significantly harder by saito being said CWHP and louise's own character flaws) and the violent aspects just kinda' shrugged off. Relationship ends up being vaguely healthy, more or less, iirc. At least as tsundere-included anime romcom go.

The reality, of course, is that without mind control, a relationship like that would crash and burn like goddamn, probably incinerating significant portions of the countryside considering both the characters in question are what amounts to magical WMDs.

[i2amroy]

Yeah, pretty much what the other people said is what anime is.  If you have any specific questions, I suppose you could ask those, but a general "what is anime" question is too broad.

Yeah, asking "what is anime" is pretty similar to asking "what is a movie" or "what are books". In this case it happens to be a medium rather similar in a lot of aspects to cartoons, and is usually made in Japan, but beyond that anything is fair game. Genre, animation style, emotional tone, anything else is fair game really.

[Andres]

It really isn't that complicated. Anime is Japanese cartoons. See? Easy.

[Radio Controlled]

It really isn't that complicated. Anime is Japanese cartoons. See? Easy.

Yes. But there might be more to it. For example, tell me, do you think there's a difference in content or motives or style between anime and western cartoons? Sure, you'll have overlaps and shows borrowing, but could you tell the difference between the average/archetypical anime vs western cartoon?

[Radio Controlled]

Accidental doublepost, fuck you to internet.

[Neonivek]

To the more general discussion, don't mistake things -- most everything that involves a tsundere character displays characteristic abuse patterns (it's really hard to say they're actually in full out abusive relationships, though, especially in context of the shows themselves*), and anything involving that and slapstick (especially clumsily written slapstick) is going to push buttons. A lot of romcom slapstick in general does, really. Not stuff I'd recommend to an actual abuse victim. Fiction in general with romance involved is a freaking minefield when it comes to stuff like that.

If you want I could just show scenes of abuse from Love Hina and Inuyasha... and I am 100% sure they will give those shows a pass even a disdainful pass and find them funny.

If we are going to play the "its not so bad, if anything ZnT is rather typical" (typical my butt!) card.

Since no, I am going to insist I am not an outlier here... Some lone nut who doesn't see that ZnT is comedy genius who probably cries himself to sleep watching Family guy.

[i2amroy]

It really isn't that complicated. Anime is Japanese cartoons. See? Easy.

The problem is just saying "Japanese cartoons" to many people carries a lot of the old connotations of "cartoon" along with it. I've had at least a few people when I tried to go that explanation route start thinking of things like this:

to the point that they totally miss the fact that "anime" can also include things like this:

To people who have never heard of it before (especially older people, who still compromise the vast majority of the population) the animation age ghetto is still often a rather strong effect, and as such I tend to air on the side of pushing them away from the idea of "it's a cartoon" before pointing out the fact that they just happen to share a medium. (And yes, I realize that anime includes kid stuff too, but the fact that it also includes non-kid stuff along with the kid stuff is the key point I'm trying to get across in my explanations).

[adwarf]

So I just learned Durarara!! got a sequel, and after watching the first episode of it I must say that I really missed watching this show. Thank you Aniplex, I wanted more of this.

[Neonivek]

If I had to say the main reason why people like anime over western animation I would say... flat out... well two things

1) It isn't made for 7 year olds like the vast majority of western animation and thus it doesn't shy away from people actually dying.
and
2) It has a strong focus on continuity

[Andres]

It really isn't that complicated. Anime is Japanese cartoons. See? Easy.

Yes. But there might be more to it. For example, tell me, do you think there's a difference in content or motives or style between anime and western cartoons? Sure, you'll have overlaps and shows borrowing, but could you tell the difference between the average/archetypical anime vs western cartoon?

Yes. Anime tends to be more serious business. They literally invented serious business, even, with Yugioh - card games is serious business!

[Reelya]

Neon, I'm pretty sure Frumple was speaking from the LN perspective.

Ahhhh okie

But why pick on me for not liking the anime again?

But I can ask actual abuse victims what they think of the LN.

Going off the LN excerpts, it looks like Saito often gloats and deliberately taunts Louise endlessly and childishly before getting clobbered. And he has sort of an inner monologue going where he's taking real glee in how much he can piss her off. So there's more give and take and it's not just him getting clobbered for stuff that's not his fault. Those excerpts are so different to anime-Saito that it's clear they basically rewrote Saito's character completely in the anime version, he became more of a generic pervy harem lead. So, being clobbered for being a childish shithead got replaced by being clobbered for looking at other girls oppai.

The bit where he's taunting her and literally dancing in circles around her mocking her. It's very different if you do that sort of stuff, then get clobbered, vs getting clobbered while minding your own business. That sort of in your face mockery would test the patience of even the most ardent pacifist.

[i2amroy]

Okay, just finished Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Probably the strongest gotcha moment for me was right after the flashback episode when I realized that, unlike the vast majority of animes out there, the opening song actually meant something. And then it happened again after the final episode, when I realized that the other half of it had meaning too, changing the meaning I had already seen for the first half. Seriously, that hit me harder than any of the other wham moments in the whole season. Was quite a good show (though at this point Unlimited Budget Works still tops it on my list ), and I'll have to make sure to look up the movies at some point, if only to set myself up for watching the third one which as I understand it serves as an actual sequel to the story instead of just a retelling.