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Author Topic: Tools and Equipment  (Read 11001 times)

Warlord255

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2008, 03:57:17 pm »

Maybe dwarves that embark with a sufficient level in a given skill would come with the necessary tools?

IIRC, ambushers of standard level or higher come with a crossbow and leather armor. I could definitely see this being expanded upon, engravers with chisels, fisherdwarves with poles, etc.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2008, 04:29:23 pm »

Maybe dwarves that embark with a sufficient level in a given skill would come with the necessary tools?

I like this approach, but the game needs to let you know those tools are already being brought.  When I first started playing, I wasted a bunch of money buying a crossbow for my hunter, because I didn't know he was bringing his own.

Of course, it's way too easy to get free stuff that way.  So maybe the game should display a "Recommended items" list on the items page based on the professions you've selected, plus a "Buy recommended" key.
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Spey

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2008, 07:05:29 am »

In my mind, DF has never really been about abstraction that much, we dont have generic "food", there are countless types of rock that dont really do anything, and dwarves are dressed down to the individual sock (with its own individual level of wear).

Ideally what I'd like to have in DF is much more complexity with regards to equipment. most of what DF is, is dwarves doing jobs, but the mechanics of these jobs are quite generic right now, bring raw materials to workshop, ?, job magically complete.

Certain jobs are done in the field, and only some of these currently have tools.

  • Mining - Pick
  • Woodcutting - Axe
  • Engraving - nothing
  • Mason (building things) - nothing
  • Hunting - any weapon
  • Architect - nothing
  • Fisherdwarf - nothing
  • Planter - nothing
  • Herbalist - nothing
  • Mechanic (assembling traps in the field) - nothing

These professions could easily use the same mechanic that makes a miner grab and use a pick, only they are grabbing a hammer and chisel, or a scythe, or a wrench instead.

The rest of the professions do all of their work at some kind of workshop (though some of these could probably be done in the field as an adventurer, like skinning or fish cleaning). However, the workshops they use for the most part seem to be just a stack of blocks or some loose rock. Dwarves hardly ever use any kind of item that directly relates to the job they are doing (exeptions seem to be anvils and glass vials).

I dont see the logic as to why we need things like cups or antivenom or toys or soap or instruments or any of the countless items that currently do nothing in the game whatsoever, when at the same time people dont want to see items like hammers, chisels, knives or any of the items that would be used, both as an adventurer (carrying a knife in order to survive via skinning, butchering or cleaning fish etc) and in fortress mode (tools carried by workers in the case of field jobs or used in construction of workshops).

Sure you would have to plan your embark items a little more carefully, but who isnt doing this already? also once you have embarked, why not give that lowly metal crafter or blacksmith something to do once in a while and have him be a toolmaker, or maybe if you dont have any metal, you should be able to craft an axe or other primitive tools out of rock (as per history).

As a closing statement I'd like to draw peoples attention to the way tools are handled in The Unreal World and I think if DF adventure mode worked anything like this (if its Toadys intention to have skills working in adventure mode), then it would only enhance the game.
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Silverionmox

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2008, 09:01:05 am »

Dwarves could own the (hand) tools of their trade and keep them in their own rooms, taking them to work as needed. It seems dwarvish for them to take their work personally. On the other hand, that would potentially require a lot of trips for dwarves with multiple jobs enabled. That would then encourage players to think about job combinations though, and suddenly it makes sense to have masons and engravers in the same group.
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dizzyelk

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2008, 01:24:58 pm »

Dwarves could own the (hand) tools of their trade and keep them in their own rooms, taking them to work as needed. It seems dwarvish for them to take their work personally. On the other hand, that would potentially require a lot of trips for dwarves with multiple jobs enabled. That would then encourage players to think about job combinations though, and suddenly it makes sense to have masons and engravers in the same group.

Add a "toolbelt" to the leather making jobs, that could hold a few hand tools. That way your mechanic/carpenter/mason (very useful for water wheels and such) could have his hammer and wrench or whatever.
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Draco18s

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2008, 01:37:52 pm »

Add a "toolbelt" to the leather making jobs, that could hold a few hand tools. That way your mechanic/carpenter/mason (very useful for water wheels and such) could have his hammer and wrench or whatever.

I think this is the only way I could support this suggestion.

I don't want mutually exclusive jobs where ever possible.

If farming needs a scyth and it takes up a hand my woodcutter/farmers won't exist anymore, etc.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2008, 01:47:30 pm »

Mutually exclusive jobs would be annoying... perhaps dwarves could throw all the tools for their enabled tool-using labors in a backpack?  Carrying an axe or pick in a backpack is a little implausible, though.

Frankly, dwarves shouldn't be carrying an axe and scythe at the same time.  Mutually exclusive jobs are fine as long as they don't result in incessant "drop this tool, pick up that one."
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LegacyCWAL

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2008, 02:05:10 pm »

Not to mention that not all crops are good for a scythe.  About the only way I can see Wild Strawberries being harvested with a scythe is if the farmer builds a super-complicated mechanical scythe that runs on lava and the screams of impaled kittens. :P



Back in the general direction of the topic, it's not that abstraction is a good thing or that non-abstraction is a bad thing.  It's not that having more jobs need tools is a bad thing.  It's just that DF is also supposed to be a game.  As such, by definition there comes a point where the details start to get in the way of playing.  Hell, most of the really cool and fun stuff you can do in the game, like megaprojects and drowning chambers, stop being possible if the simulation goes too far.


In my mind, DF has never really been about abstraction that much, we dont have generic "food", there are countless types of rock that dont really do anything, and dwarves are dressed down to the individual sock (with its own individual level of wear).
In large part, we really do more or less have generic food.  Of the 21 crops:

7 grow year round and can be eaten raw, brewed, or cooked
3 grow year round and can only be milled into dye
2 grow year round and can be brewed or milled into cooking ingredients

On top of that,

2 can be brewed and turned into thread
A third crop can be brewed or milled into cooking ingredients, and another can be brewed and milled or processed into cooking ingredients

So really, we're basically down to just 9 truly different crops.


Having countless types of rock that don't do anything goes against your point.  We don't have to worry about which one makes the most stable walls or which one will erode more quickly: rock is rock is rock.

Cups, toys, and instruments are like crops: they do pretty much the same thing, no matter what they're called.

Dwarves are dressed down to the individual sock, but how much difference does it really make what kind of sock they're wearing?


These are all things that might as well still be abstracted because we don't have to worry about the nitty-gritty details.  If you want to plant something that can be milled or brewed, you just pick one of the three (or four, if you count sweet pods).  You don't have to worry about whether Longland Beer is more nutritious than Whip Wine, or whether Dwarven Flour will go bad sooner than Longland Flour, you just plant one.


Ideally what I'd like to have in DF is much more complexity with regards to equipment. most of what DF is, is dwarves doing jobs, but the mechanics of these jobs are quite generic right now, bring raw materials to workshop, ?, job magically complete.
It may not sound like it, but I'm all for more complexity.  That's half the point of the game.  Much of the potential complexity isn't even implemented in stuff that already exists (such as the crops I mentioned), and I would like to see such things as there being a real difference between Wild Strawberries and Rat Weed.

I'm just worried about the other half of the game's point: the fact that it's a game.  By definition, the fact that it's a game means that at some point, nitty-gritty details will get in the way of gameplay.
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Spey

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2008, 07:28:56 am »

...not all crops are good for a scythe...

Ah I think when I wrote scythe I was really thinking more of a sickle.

Quote from: LegacyCWAL
...Back in the general direction of the topic, it's not that abstraction is a good thing or that non-abstraction is a bad thing.  It's not that having more jobs need tools is a bad thing.  It's just that DF is also supposed to be a game.  As such, by definition there comes a point where the details start to get in the way of playing.  Hell, most of the really cool and fun stuff you can do in the game, like megaprojects and drowning chambers, stop being possible if the simulation goes too far...

Well yes this is true, but I'm not looking to bury the gameplay in minutae, I just think a little more complexity in this part of the game couldnt hurt. Nobody finds woodcutters or miners overly complex, same deal with building a forge or an alchemists laboratory. having all jobs on that level would just be more immersive imo.

Something like how the original 'Settlers' worked is what I was kind of aiming for. In that game, you had a few different tools, hammers, pliers, saws, shovels, picks etc. and each type of profession was typically a combination of settler and tool(s). You also had a toolmaker and a toolmakers workshop where you would combine iron and wood to make the various tools.

Quote from: LegacyCWAL
...In large part, we really do more or less have generic food...

Well I can kinda see what you are saying, but I think its toadys intention to expand on this part of the game, and also with things like certain crops not growing in different seasons or biomes, and different dwarves having a preference for different plants or plant derived consumables, there is a bit of variety here still.

Quote from: LegacyCWAL
...Having countless types of rock that don't do anything goes against your point.  We don't have to worry about which one makes the most stable walls or which one will erode more quickly: rock is rock is rock...

Fair point here too, perhaps my example would work better with metal ores, the game could technically function with one generic "metal", but I think its much more interesting to have the current setup of ores being smelted into various metals with varying uses and values

Quote from: LegacyCWAL
...Dwarves are dressed down to the individual sock, but how much difference does it really make what kind of sock they're wearing?...

Well I was thinking more on the lines of, do we really need to know that urist mc example is wearing a left sock but not a right, and his Xxkitten leather capxX will need replacing soon? This is the sort of thing that could be completely abstracted away as "dwarves wear clothes, dont worry about it". However while the system isnt perfect right now (curse those armok damned dwarves for littering my fortress with XXclothingXX) I think the game is richer for having this level of detail.

Quote from: LegacyCWAL
...These are all things that might as well still be abstracted because we don't have to worry about the nitty-gritty details...

Quote from: LegacyCWAL
...I'm just worried about the other half of the game's point: the fact that it's a game.  By definition, the fact that it's a game means that at some point, nitty-gritty details will get in the way of gameplay...

I think you hit the nail on the head, pretty much most of DF could be abstracted away, but I think the attraction of DF is its level of detail. The idea of having tools for jobs just doesnt seem like its entirely more complex than any other part of DF, at least not to me.


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Shaostoul

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2008, 08:32:50 am »

So you're saying we'll soon have tool belt wearing, fanny-pack sporting, backpack wielding encumbered of emo-death and suffering?

Ya, that's a brilliant idea, make sure all the freaking emo-dwarves have knives.

I could see it now... Hospital setup... Filled to max capacity... No emo-medics to assist in helping the recovering slit-wrist dwarves.

I know we all like the suffering, but do you really want that many fell moods and tantrums resulting quite possibly in catastrophic dwarf-failure?

The idea to speed up workshops with assisting items is good. Fishers could start de-boning fishies. Filleting. Loosing fingers... Impaled feet from bored-fisherdwarf (wrong side o' spear dummy) I think the Wunder Boner should be implemented! (It's a real product for deboning fish fyi...... you sick people you.)

There is a lot of complexity to be had. I know it's a Toady game, but wouldn't a little help go a long way in speeding up process?

From what I remember there is a ton of useless items. In future to have added purpose... but currently just stockpile junk and trader goop.
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Spey

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Re: Tools and Equipment
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2008, 05:18:54 am »

I know we all like the suffering, but do you really want that many fell moods and tantrums resulting quite possibly in catastrophic dwarf-failure?

Hey we need something to make use of the new wounds system right?

and besides who WOULDNT sprinkle a tantrum spiral with knives and blunt instruments? it would be the dwarven thing to do.
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