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[LrZeph]

this idea is, somewhat okay, It would be smarter if you had to upgrade the anvil, say from a Primitive Anvil To the one we have now, over a set of stages, BUT you use the old one to make the new one.

[Grand_Marquis]

well that again brings up the logical conundrum of anvils that are made of metals that can't be forged using a weaker anvil.  What we really need is a process by which any anvil can be made, were to you own the sufficient material to make it, not including an anvil.  So the question really becomes now: aside from the requisite metal, what are those materials?

[Wahnsinniger]

Stone Anvil: Fully usable anvil which can only be used half a dozen times or less.

Chicken and the Egg is not the right comparison. Tools operate on a different Philosophy:
"You take a rock, chip away another rock, and have a slightly more useful rock. You then take that one and make an even better rock"

The thing about tools is that they, in concept, allow you to make an even better tool. Thus a mason could use a big stone hammer to chip away a rock to make a stone anvil. In turn, that stone anvil could be used to make some metal tools and eventually a metal anvil. Fast forward a several centuries and you'll have a machinist using a metal-stamping machine to make an even better metal stamping machine (probably not, but you get the idea)

[Tamren]

The idea with the stone anvil is that its a temporary stand in for a real anvil.

It won't help you make another anvil, but you could use it a few times until it degrades or an unlucky miss cracks it.

You COULD carve a mold out of stone to cast an anvil though.

[Neonivek]

Thus a mason could use a big stone hammer to chip away a rock to make a stone anvil

Unfortunately while that could get ONE smoothed surface (If you were unbelievable lucky) you need more... A Rock anvil would require rock polish and sand-paper... It isn't a stone slab

You COULD carve a mold out of stone to cast an anvil though.

We established that the technology available would make a rather poor Anvil to the point of near uselessness (you would be better off finding a large rock and smoothing it) if you just used a mold. Why do you think Toady doesn't allow you to make swords there?

[Othob Rithol]

How about the abstraction of requiring a couple of stone blocks and 3 suitable metal bars (iron or steel) at the smelter? The assumption is (coupled with a longer task duration) that the blacksmith first made the stone anvil and then used it to make the metal anvil. The stone anvil is assumed to have been destroyed in the process. This eliminates the need to create a unique "stone anvil" object, the coding hassles associated with it, as well as any and all potential exploits.

When was the last time you made lye? Does it kill immersion that we can go from ash->potash directly?

Draco18s is correct. The Not-Chicken laid the Egg. I am suggesting the Not-Anvil made the first anvil.

[Tamren]

There are other ways to smooth stone that don't require tools. The egyptians smoothed out stone blocks by hitting them with cubs made of this special stone. On impact the stone pulverizes a small amount of rock into dust, eventually smoothing the surface. Also, define "poor". An anvil is just a flat surface that you can beat on without it breaking. Iron and steel anvils have a bit of "bounce" to them which makes them better. Most rocks are good enough for this use, at least for a couple projects after which they break. This is acceptable for emergency use. If the rock alone wasn't durable enough you could simply cover the top with a thick sheet of metal to strengthen it.

If using rock to cast stuff wouldn't work then why not sand?

The whole system is currently abstracted. There are tons of metalworking techniques. Even though multiple techniques can make the same object we don't get to choose which one. Its just assumed that the worker used to tools he had to complete the project.

Ideally in the future the quality of the work produces would depend on the quality of the tools and the process the worker uses.

[i2amroy]

Stone Anvil: Fully usable anvil which can only be used half a dozen times or less.

Chicken and the Egg is not the right comparison. Tools operate on a different Philosophy:
"You take a rock, chip away another rock, and have a slightly more useful rock. You then take that one and make an even better rock"

The thing about tools is that they, in concept, allow you to make an even better tool. Thus a mason could use a big stone hammer to chip away a rock to make a stone anvil. In turn, that stone anvil could be used to make some metal tools and eventually a metal anvil. Fast forward a several centuries and you'll have a machinist using a metal-stamping machine to make an even better metal stamping machine (probably not, but you get the idea)

Your right, but the answer to the chicken egg question is always the egg, I mean, dinosaur eggs were around for millions of years before the first chicken ever existed, and the questions does not state what type of egg we are talking about.

[Yanlin]

What about mining while smithing?

Have the dwarf light himself on fire (Too keep the metal hot) then proceed to use the next wall to be mined as an anvil till he mines through?

[Grand_Marquis]

Frankly, just being able to order a dwarf to light himself on fire would be awesome enough for me.

[Granite26]

I really think the answer lies in quality so low as to be unusable.

A (no-name) blacksmith could make a XXXStone AnvilXXX 50% of the time.  The rest would be unusable.  The XXXStone AnvilXXX could make a XXXIron AnvilXXX 50% of the time (The rest is scrap).  An XXXIron AnvilXXX is a normal Iron Anvil with a HUGE quality penalty. (I'm thinking that the quality-less ones we are using are really + or threebar). 

So in order for a dwarf with no skill (dabbling) to make a normal iron anvil, he'd have to try making a XXXStone AnvilXXX at something like 1% chance (no skill gain, that's exploitive).  When he got it, he'd need to train up making twisted copper rubbish (really only good for a re-melt) until he got good enough to build an XXXIron AnvilXXX.  Then he'd build the XXIron AnvilXX , then the XIron AnvilX, then the Iron Anvil, etc, etc ad nauseum.

This gets even more complicated when you need to make a rock pick and a rock axe. :-D

I fully believe that you should be able to bootstrap yourself up from nothing, but that it should be an EPIC achievement.

[Tamren]

Yes exactly. The methods of manufacture and the quality of the tools used should have a huge effect on the quality of the finished product. But nothing should stop you from building up from the bottom.

Skill at crafting can make up for dull tools, but only to a point.

[Soadreqm]

looking at the wikipedia article

"The common blacksmith's anvil is made of either forged or cast steel, tool steel, or wrought iron (cast iron anvils are generally shunned, as they are too brittle for repeated use, and do not return the energy of a hammer blow like steel). "

sounds like you can make it game balancing by making cast anvils shatter after a couple uses.

I think this would be a good approach, at least once general wear and tear is implemented. A blacksmith can cast himself a poor anvil, and then use it to make a proper anvil. Or grind out a few copper goblets before the thing breaks. I can't decide wheter I think rock anvils are a good idea or not. Maybe a single-use item. And it gets even more complicated if we allow artifact rock anvils, since artifacts are generally assumed to be nigh unbreakable.

What really made me think about this was an offhand comment in the original Fallout about how "any blacksmith can make their own anvil". I suppose we could require that the blacksmith in question have a certain skill level, but it shouldn't be the kind of bottleneck it is now.

I think the biggest problem in bootstrapping yourself up from nothing should be the creation of your first pick. Mining rock with rock tools is theoretically possible, I guess, but not really feasible unless you have an infinite amount of time to spend. And because the current material system can only handle large chunks of ore, you could never ever mine for metals with one. I think real-world civilizations did it by finding ore lying on the ground. Creating wood shovels to dig dirt and stone axes to chop down trees could be possible, but unless you found a native copper boulder on the ground, a bar of metal should really be a must. Either that or wait until the goblins bring you some.

...Can ore boulders exist in the current game? Because using one to make your first pick would be kind of cool. Once it's possible to dig up a boulder to get a chunk of rock, that is. Which, I think, was in the dev notes somewhere.

[axus]

I think it flows better the way it is now.  In DF you can screw yourself over, so you better have an anvil or be able to trade with someone who can sell you one. 

I'd be for a "smelt an anvil" job that took a really really long time to make a good anvil, but the dwarves would take a drink/food/sleep break before the job could ever be completed.

Someday we'll have full control over workshops with the raws, then people can play how they want.

[pavlov]

3 iron ore -> Smelter -> "Crude iron anvil"

When used at a forge, cannot produce items above standard quality.

After one use, xCrude iron anvilx
After four uses, no more crude anvil.